south bend 9B for gunsmithing

[W.R.Buchanan]

I bought my 9" SB from a retired gunsmith who had retired from the Army in the late 40's or early 50's and had bought it new when he set up a private gunsmithing business. He had worked at Springfield with James Howe, Townsend Whelen, Julian Hatcher and others. He knew a bit about gunsmithing. He had done a lot of custom gunsmithing with the lathe before I bought it in the late 70's. I have turned over 180 new Maynard barrels on the lathe as well as lots of other barrels. The longest barrel I completed on it was a 34" barrel. Yes, a 9" South Bend can get the job done if that is what you have. I just threaded and fitted a long octagon barrel on my 11" Logan. I got it done but for me it is more awkward to use than the SB. It just would not go thru the spindle of the SB. Yes, a newer lathe may be better in some respects but s 9" SB in good shape should not be overlooked.

That is the operative point in your post. A decent SB lathe is a very rare thing these days.. It was a very rare thing in 1970 as well.

Gunsmithing in todays market place is a completely different animal than it was 50 years ago. Precision is the name of the game and that means having good equipment. You are not going to make a living installing Sling Swivels or Mounting Scopes as most all guns come with sling swivels and the guns are already D&T'd for scope mounts or have Picatinny Rails. Any one can mount a scope now and drilling 2 1/8" holes for Sling Swivels is not too hard either.

If you are looking at it from a Hobby perspective then those older machines might be ok as long as your expectations aren't too great.

If you want to do work for other people, you will rue the day you bought an older piece of Junk,,, the first time you screw up someone else's gun.

There are Two Components to Craftsmanship.

1. Attention to Detail

2. Personal Responsibility

And it doesn't matter if you are Flippin' Burgers or Building Rocket parts, they still apply to everything you do.!

"Attention to Detail" is obvious. You have to see and check everything.

"Personal Responsibility" is the part where you don't let anything you found in the "Attention to Detail" portion of the exercise, go out the door! And if you screwed up something you need to fess up to it!

The Personal Responsibility part also extends to your clear assessment of your abilities and also to the capabilities of your equipment.

Hence the need for good equipment in the beginning, and the willingness to learn how to use it effectively becomes and ethical component to the craft.

Anything else is Hack Work !, and also means you don't really give a ship about what you are doing. It also means I got no use for you, and you damn sure aren't gonna be Flippin' my Burgers!

The one place which I believe you should never see shoddy work is in Guns.

Guns are too sacred a tool to be disrespected in such a way. It should also be noted that the entire Machinist's Discipline revolves around the making of Interchangeable Parts for Guns!

They are the things that make all men equal, despite what the creator may or may not have intended,,,

as that hadn't worked out that great until the evolution of man corrected it just recently.

Randy

[farmbif]

its all a matter if you might come across one that is still in good shape, the sb9's are great lathes but nothing lasts forever. ive got three of them but I was never really a machinist and never did real precision work. in fact I have not used them in years and the probably should sell them off.

[uscra112]

Don't knock primitive equipment. Ever see pictures of Harry Pope's lathe?

[Graybeard96]

I am no professional Machinist but have a tiny but well equipped Shop in which I can fix most anything including cutting a Gear on my Chinese made Combination Lath/Mill as sold by Grizzly.

I am a sucker for buying used but unless you know how to evaluate and measure to be sure the used Lathe in question is not worn out, I would strongly suggest asking a experienced Machinist for his opinion before purchase. Another thing is Lathes are like Boats, as soon you had one for awhile you wish you had a bigger one.

Cheers

[Scrounge]

I am no professional Machinist but have a tiny but well equipped Shop in which I can fix most anything including cutting a Gear on my Chinese made Combination Lath/Mill as sold by Grizzly.

I am a sucker for buying used but unless you know how to evaluate and measure to be sure the used Lathe in question is not worn out, I would strongly suggest asking a experienced Machinist for his opinion before purchase. Another thing is Lathes are like Boats, as soon you had one for awhile you wish you had a bigger one.

Cheers

Yes! Sort of like alcohol, too. You get one, and then you need another, then they get together and decide you need another... Bro is delivering my 4th lathe/3rd mill tomorrow, Lord willing and the creek don't rise. Smithy 3-in-1 combination machine.

[30calflash]

Although it's been a while I acquired a 9" SB lathe that had seen very little real use.

A friends grandfather started looking into getting one before WW2 was on the horizon. Had multiple letters to & from the company regarding what his best choice for purchase would be. Then in 1940 he received a letter stating no further sales will be made as the government has set procedures to acquire equipment due to the start up of preparing for the war.

He had to wait until the late 40's to get his order in and he purchased the 9" lathe with accessories brand new from SB himself. I have the correspondence that came with the equipment. He had it in his home until his passing and I acquired it in a trade from my friend.

So, there are clean older machines or rebuilts out there, time, patience and luck required.

[DeadWoodDan]

I'll add another vote for Grizzly! Call and talk with them. The owner is well known in the shooting world and has tailored his business to help other shooters.

[W.R.Buchanan]

A new SB9 could be OK if you can find one. A gently used one could be made OK if you knew how to do it. Most people don't even know how to level a lathe properly and can't understand why their machine cuts tapers?

My point from the beginning of this thread is to push people towards better machinery. Better machinery takes less skill to run effectively, a nd as a result your beginners work will be much better than if you try to learn on an older looser machine. Like I said earlier a worn out Monarch 10EE or a worn out Hardinge HLV are better than a brand new South Bend still in the box!

Arguably the best engine lathes ever made were the Mori Seiki 17" lathes. I have ran one and it was spectacular. It would do exactly what you told it to do, light or heavy cuts didn't matter. Close by are Graziano 12" lathes which are Excellent. They have an 8 speed gearbox which is controlled by the on /off lever and are also very accurate. Finding good ones of those is not all that easy either. I ran one once that was brand new, and then found it in another shop down the road set up right next to a Water Jet Machine covered in Garnet Powder. A friend bought it and we took it to the .25 car wash to clean it before complete disassembly. It is now in his garage, but it suffered from the misuse.

You've got to take care of your machines. Garages are Notoriously Filthy places and your machines need to stay covered when not in use. Dirt is the biggest enemy of all machinery. You'll note that all car engines have Air Filters. I have never seen a machine tool with an air filter. Have you?

And Harry Pope was far from a beginner.

Randy

[uscra112]

When I was in the machine tool rebuilding business in the '80s we used to say that the rebuilder's best friend was the air nozzle. Sloppy operators would use it to blow the chips away, but at the same time blew them past the way wipers.

[M-Tecs]

And Harry Pope was far from a beginner.

Randy

And his lathe was far from a worn out piece of junk. It most likely had Babbitt bearing he cast himself. He designed and built his rifling machine himself.

[uscra112]

He did rework it, but it started life as a treadle-powered machine. Treadle as in the old time singer sewing machines.

Something most people don't know is that he farmed out most of his machine work. The only thing he always did himself was chamber and rifle the barrels.

[country gent]

Grizzly is making or having lathes made under the south bend name now. So a new one may be ready and waiting.

[Bent Ramrod]

This thread is turning into an apples vs. oranges argument.

If one is a professional, making things for sale, it follows logically that one wants the maximum production per man-hour to maximize one’s profits. New equipment can be justified on a business plan for financing, paid for in installments, and amortized for taxes. And the turnkey setup that results can crank out the “widgets” with no side issues.

An amateur is not making things for others (at least not often), only wants to make things for hobby use, and is not likely to take out a loan to finance his hobby. For him, capital equipment is a major expense, whereas his time is only as valuable as he thinks it is. If he’s taking away from the time he’d otherwise spend crying along with Oprah on the TV, it’s not necessarily an unendurable burden learning the quirks of a “worn-out” machine.

In the reality I occupy, most gun enthusiasts who are rich enough to buy new machinery don’t do so. They send their phat stacks to their favorite mechanic, and post on line as “we” complete “our build.”

The new equipment out of China might be better now, but I’ve had occasion to review 20 years’ accumulation of Home Shop Machinist Magazine for tips on refurbs and accessories for my “junk,” and the reviews of some of that (then) new imported machinery certainly weren’t of the sort that would send me running to buy one. Often, the best that the reviewers could say was that the importer was anxious to help and eventually made good. These were amateur users, by the way; not connected to the magazine itself, except by means of sending in writeups.

But, I do like old machinery, like I like old guns. So I am biased that way. If I ever decided to “turn pro,” with the highest production rate I could achieve on the newest equipment, I’d still starve to death in a couple weeks. I get a lot of good fun and education out of fixing up my old junker guns with my old junk machines. The frustrations I endure are seldom the fault of my equipment, either.

[country gent]

Bent Ramrod, In the 2nd shop I worked the newest lathe was 1952 monarch 14 X 60 but heres the kicker, construction on the plant started in 1955 so the tool room machines were bought used here. The mills were all this era also. surface grinders and od grinder were of this era also. We got very little in the line of additional machines and very few brand new ones. Our first cnc machine center was a used mitsibishi in 94 pr so.

Yes its nice to buy a brand new machine and wear with it. But a lot can be saved buy a good used machine and learning to "take the play out" The first job shop I hired in to ( 1976) was mostly converted flat belt machines. Shapers, horizontal mills and round ram BP. While we didnt machine as fast as the "modern shops" we did do accurate work and a lot of it. I have to wonder at times how many in todays shops have used a shaper. We did a lot of work there including splitting hubs, key ways, occasional tooling. How many have ganged up several cutters on a horizontals arbor to cut a shape in one pass. How many have done a true precission lay out on a surface plate with a vernieer height gage and Jo Blocks. How many have scrapped a surface true flat and square by hand to bring a used part back to use.

One of the problems with used machines is they normally arnt solid enough to run the carbide everyone thinks they need, But then they probably werent when they were brand new. Good ole HSS sharpened and honed then ran at proper speeds and feeds wiill make these old machines shine. You have to work with what you have and how it was meant to run.

[uscra112]

Old tools can't run at spindle speeds and feeds that take advantage of carbide, but there's no reason not to use it. You have to stick to speeds and feeds as for HSS tooling. Which is what I do with my WW2 era S.B. 10" Heavy. It is a particular slowpoke, but carbide cuts cleaner, and at such slow speeds it never gets dull.

[M-Tecs]

Worn out is worn out. Backlash and various other ailments can be compensated for. Worn-out spindle bearings are not one of them. Same for very worn lathe beds. The US made 70 vintage heavy iron manual machines are wonderful if you can find one that is not worn-out or the the wear is within your skill set to rebuild.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The old lathes all had Cone Bearings in the spindles. These can be made to run nearly perfect as they wear in. Crystal Lake OD Grinder still are being made with cone bearings because they are the most accurate type of spindle bearing there is . Boley Jewelers lathes always had cone bearings.

That said, many machines can be rebuilt to better than new. My 1956 Bridgeport was rebuilt by me in 1987 and got all the ways reground including the z axis. I even repainted it. I run it nearly every day, and it is still very tight because it is hard to wear out a quality machine, unless you don't keep it clean or run it dry all the time.

The one thing that separates good machinery from the cheese is the design of the basic castings and their weight. Weight is the primary factor in Rigidity and the way a bed is designed will contribute to the rigidity as well. But weight is still the biggest factor.

Rigidity is the most important single factor in lathe or mill performance. it the machine is not rigid it will not produce good finishes simply because it is vibrating all over the place. as soon as the resonance frequency of the cut matches the frequency of the machine the finish goes out the window as the machine walks out the door..

The heavier the machine, the lower the Resonance Frequency and the heavier a cut it will withstand before it affects finishes.

The Mori Seiki Engine Lathe I mentioned above was a 17x60 machine and it was a Tank! I bet it weighed 4,000lbs!. It would take a .500 cut on a piece is 304 stainless with no problems whatsoever. Then when you dialed in another .500 it took .500! Not .501 or .499.

A machine like that will make even a novice look good. They are not common and they are definitely not cheap. But my point is the design of the machine bed and the weight of the machine were the key factors of why they were so good. Plus that Mori Seiki was not known for making junk.

Hardinge Lathes have one piece Headstock and Bed Castings that are keyed together, and then a Hardened Steel Dovetail Plate is attached to the ground surface of the casting insuring the the bed is dead strait and solid and can't move in any direction in relation to the spindle. It also insures that the machine will remain accurate thruout a very long service life. My Hardinge Chucker was made in 1962, and it will still repeat to tenths all day long. I paid $2500 for it in 1989 and it has paid for itself many times over.

Anyway just getting a decent machine will help you learn machining alot faster than trying to learn how to cope with all the ideocracies of old worn out Junk. That's not to say old worn out junk can't be made to perform, it simply means you as a "newbie" won't be able to make it perform, and depending on the level of "junkedness", many of us wouldn't be able to either.

Like I said,,, "Life's too short!"

Randy

[Bent Ramrod]

Obviously, "Old Iron" isn't for everybody. From the late, great J.R. Williams.

Attachment 278570

But I don't have to produce to keep my job, that's for sure. Retirement is great that way.

A friend got a shaper at an auction for $50. There were no bids; the thing was nearly unused, and the auctioneer begged somebody to offer him $50 and haul it away.

He set it up in the corner of his tool and die shop. Shapers really have no place in the First World, unless you have some strategic savvy. He uses it for roughing stock. It clicks away in the corner, and every once in a while, one of the guys leaves what they are doing, walks over to the shaper, turns the downfeed, flips the ratchet and goes back to his task. When the traverse goes all the way in the other direction, somebody else walks over and repeats. There's always somebody who can leave off what he's doing for a few seconds or a minute for an adjustment or removal of the finished piece. A new piece goes into the vise, and the process is repeated.

It's like having an extra machinist working slowly, but for free. One of the better purchases my friend said he made, and he has all the latest and greatest equipment.

I made a High Wall lower tang on my Atlas shaper from a railroad spike once. Drilled the holes with my Unimat. Took a while, and wouldn't be mistaken for factory work by a Serious Collector, but it functions fine. Shapers are really Industrial; it's soothing to watch them work, and it sure beats sawing and filing by hand.

I'd get a planer, if I had the room, just for the Cool factor. Don't hardly see any of them around anymore, though.

[uscra112]

OH! That cartoon rang a bell. His stuff was published in some periodical I read many years ago. What was it?

Planers were in a class of "machines that made machines". A planer could cut a long machine bed to be straighter than the planer itself was. Place I once worked had one with a 70 foot stroke. Gone for scrap now, I'm sure.

[M-Tecs]

OH! That cartoon rang a bell. His stuff was published in some periodical I read many years ago. What was it?

Planers were in a class of "machines that made machines". A planer could cut a long machine bed to be straighter than the planer itself was. Place I once worked had one with a 70 foot stroke. Gone for scrap now, I'm sure.

You speak of the planers as a machine of the past. Not the case at all. They still can be purchased new. Just google "Gantry Planer Milling Machines". I am aware of one company that just ordered a 120 foot CNC Gantry Planer/Milling machine.

A company I used to work had 70 footer Planer/Mill also. They had a surface grinder with a 5O foot magnet and about a 65 foot max stroke.

Most people also think Babbitt bearings are a thing of the past. Mostly true but they still have specialty applications.

Timken roller bearing have been available since 1899 and in the precision variety this style bearing has been used in lathe spindles for a long time. The Timken style tapered roller bearings replaced Babbitt because of lower maintenance (didn't have to oil daily), serviceability (replacement didn't require an almost dead skill set), and generally higher speeds. In the same machine the Babbit type bearings could handle higher cutting loads, better surface finish, reduced machining chatter and still to this day provide for greater precision than any other type bearing other than air bearings.

Babbitt bearings machines are still manufactured for Ultra High Precision applications like some of the high end centerless grinders. Same for very high load applications in very large items

The Atlas 10's were available in Babbitt or roller bearing. Some of the South Bends lathes also had Babbitt along with a bunch of pre 40's machines. Some of the new and older light duty lathes use bronze bushing.

On a side note it is claimed one of the first commercial manufacturing operations that will be done in space is ultra high precision bearings. Per the bearing manufactures due to gravity they can't product more accurate bearing than are currently available.