Attn: BT Sniper - Comparison w/ Photo

[Tatume]

Brian asked me for a photo, and I attempted to send this to him as a PM, but could not attach the photo.



Here are the results of my experiment today. All shots were fired at 25 yards, 25 shots per target, off-hand, one handed, no support (regulation Precision Pistol position), using my S&W Model 625 45 ACP revolver, while it was snowing. The targets are B8C repair centers (standard NRA 25 yard bullseye target).

Top Row, Commercial Ammo:
L. Federal FMJ 230 gr ball, 220/250, 88.0%
R. Federal FMJ 185 gr match, 227/250, SWC, 90.8%

Bottom Row, Handloads
L. Rim Rock 200 gr RNFP cast bullet, 235/250, 94.0%
R. Rim Rock 200 gr RNFP cast bullet - swaged, 242/250, 96.8%

My handload uses 4.3 gr Bullseye, Winchester LP primers, and mixed military & commercial cases.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks for posting....

Took me a couple minutes to figure out what we are looking at.... basically we are looking at the potential accuracy difference between Full metal jacketed bullets vs. cast boolits vs. swaged cast boolits.

I'll see if I can add a few more pics... We all know what FMJ Ball ammo bullets look like....

here looks to be the cast bollit


And then take that cast boolit and swage it in a BTSimple 45 cal swage die to get the results you got form bottom right target! If you can take a pic of the cast boolit before and after swage that would be cool.....

very impressive shooting and very impressive results to show quite an improvement in accuracy!

Hope you get a chance to compete with those bullets, if not you should certainly feel good about the improved results you got from a bullet you swaged yourself!

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[BT Sniper]

That is impressive, I'm still admiring the target pics! Every shot from the swaged cast bullet is in the black while it looks like there are a few fliers from the unswaged cast boolit with 8 shots out of the black! Looks like you have a winner there and actual data that just may show a swaged cast boolit to have an accuracy advantage over everything else you have there on target.

[Tatume]

Just to be clear, that's all one photograph, not a collage. All four targets are stapled on one backer board. I hang the backer board on the target frame at the range using the green wires you see in the photo. Then I just lift it off and take it home.

Don't underestimate the Federal match ammo; it's not ordinary ball ammo. The FMJ SWC bullets are Sierra Match Kings, loaded by Federal and sold to the tune of $44 per box. The fact that either of my handloads out-shot the Federal match ammo still surprises me.

I'll take some photos of the bullets before and after swaging as soon as I can. I was off work today, and expect to get a few days off again soon.

And yes, I have every intention of competing with the swaged cast bullets.

[PbHurler]

So, swaging improves the concentricity and trues up the base?

I've experienced similar results, running cast through a C&H swaging die. It really does improve the bullet, also bumped up the dia. by 1-1/2 thousandths.

Nice group!

[Tatume]

Hi Bob,

I do it for the improvement in the bases. If I were to visually inspect each bullet base and reject those that were non-uniform, I'll bet I could achieve the same result. But that would mean rejecting 1/3 of the bullets, and would replace an objective process with a subjective one.

I don't think concentricity is a factor, as the sizing die should have removed any eccentricity. Also, the chamber throats will do the same.

Another factor with this particular bullet is length. The bullets, as received from the vendor, and quite short and stubby. On the 50 yard line they seem to be losing stability. The swaging die elongates the bullet a little bit, and I think that helps it stay on course. I don't know this.

Thanks for your comments, Tom

[Valornor]

Is there a bleed hole on the die? Are you able to bleed off some of the small weight variation you get with cast bullets?


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[Tatume]

Good Morning,

No, there is no bleed hole. However, the sensation of force required to raise the ram appears to be an accurate surrogate for measuring weight. When I prepare my match bullets I'll remove the ones that are especially hard or easy to swage. There aren't many; these commercial cast bullets are very uniform in that regard.

Take care, Tom

[Tatume]

Here's a photo of the bullets, before (R) and after (L) swaging.

[ReloaderFred]

Tatume,

Those are from a Magma mold (I have that set for both my Bullet Master and Master Caster), and it's a great bullet for both the .45 acp and .45 Colt. It appears that you're just bumping them enough to uniform the bases a little. I'm going to have to try that in my C-H Swaging Die and see if I also find a difference.

When I first read your post, I thought you might be swaging them to make a flat base bullet, but that doesn't appear to be the case, since the bevel isn't completely removed. The bevel is just reduced in size to what appears to be about half of what the original is. That wouldn't take much swaging pressure at all, and probably goes pretty fast. I just finished casting about 20,000 of those bullets, so I'll pull a sample out and try your method and see if I get the same results. I can try them in .45 acp and both .45 Colt revolvers and rifles. It should be interesting, but I need it to stop raining before I can do any serious testing.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Tatume]

Hi Fred,

I've tried swaging the bevel completely away, and it takes considerable effort. The bullets are shooting so well at this level of swaging that I seriously doubt any additional improvement in accuracy can be detected in the completely swaged bullets. However, I have not done a side-by-side comparison. Nevertheless, the law of diminishing returns would seem to apply here.

You should lube and size your bullets before swaging, for two reasons. First, if yours are like my own cast bullets, they will be several thousandths larger before sizing. They will not enter the swage die freely, and may be distorted or shaved. Second, if the lube groove is not filled it will collapse. As it is, I'm losing most of my crimp groove. The crimp groove doesn't matter to me because I'm using a taper crimp, and with a taper crimp the bullets work just fine in target loads for both my Model 25 45 Colt revolver and my Model 625 45 ACP revolver.

Take care, Tom

[ReloaderFred]

Hi Tom,

I reform cast and lubed bullets in my swaging dies pretty regularly, usually to make hollowpoint bullets. I'm guessing your commercially cast bullets are probably a Bhn of 18, which is what the common commercial alloys usually run. I use an alloy that's Bhn 12, which works better for my purposes.

The Bhn 18 bullets are hard to reform in common swaging dies and presses. It takes a lot of pressure to reshape a bullet that hard, and most swaging dies for reloading presses aren't up to that kind of pressure, nor are the reloading presses. Even Bhn 12 bullets are relatively hard to reshape, but it can be done if you're careful and don't over do it. My Corbin CSP-1 is capable, but it puts a lot of stress on the die itself, and they've become too expensive to crack, so I limit the amount of reshaping I do with the harder bullets.

It's always amazed me how well the bullet lube holds up to the pressures of swaging when reforming cast bullets. As you note, without the lube in place, you'll lose your lube groove. The bullet alloy forms enough of a seal that the lube doesn't have anywhere to go, so it just holds the groove in place, which is a good thing.

My .45 Colt revolvers are all Blackhawks, and my .45 acp revolvers are Blackhawks and a Model 625-3. The .45 Colt rifles are three Marlin 1894CB's, two with the longer barrel and one with the shorter barrel. I've got one Blackhawk that with the .45 acp cylinder is scary accurate, to the point I'm not sure it doesn't have a radar guided sighting system. That same revolver, with the .45 Colt cylinder isn't near as accurate, but I'm sure it could be made to be more accurate, but it's mainly a fun gun.

Fred