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Thread: 350Legend.......Blessing or Curse!!!

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    350Legend.......Blessing or Curse!!!

    With all the contoversy as to proper bullet diameter for Winchester's 350 Legend it makes you wonder!

    When I developed the .357 Rimless Super Max several years ago , it was based on a .223/5.56 case opened up to accept a .357-8" bullet and trimmed to 1.67". Then I found a source of 5.56 LC unformed brass. NOW, Starline makes that .223 straight brass.

    Clymer made a custom reamer for me and I chambered a Green Mountain .35 Cal barrel. After a lot of tweaking and frustration I got this cartridge to chamber and cycle with a reasonable amount of reliabilty in the AR platform. Obviosly the bullet selection left much to be desired. Amost all were pistol bullets.

    Now comes the 350 Legend for which Hornady is offering 170gr InterLock Spire Point bullets in .355" diameter. BIG Question here. Are the CMMG barrels .357"or .355"? Are other barrel/upper makers using different specs?

    It appears to me the gun came out before all the research was done. Of course this is just my opinion.

    I am going to try the InterLock .355 in my .357 RSM rifle. Who knows, it might even feed better and shoot just fine. After all I've shot 9mm 147gr HP in it with superb accuracy for what it is at 2100fps.

    I bought a CMMG 350 Legend barrel a while back..................but somehow I really don't know why. Because as they say "Been There, Done That" already!
    So many toys........so little time.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    I will say I'd be thinking of 35 rem bullets pushed through a sizer die at some level. I actually emailed you (probably you anyways) about this and you said the tooling was gone because I was interested in a barrel. I'd much rather have something like the 357RM vs the Legend because I could get my revolver cut for moon clips and run the ammo there too or heck even fire form brass. With exception to case capacity I think that the Legend is overall an inferior option.

    That said I also think it'll be a riot of a cartridge in the long run as the wildcatters get ahold of it. You could see all sorts of interesting rounds made out of Legend brass.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Legend brass is nothing more than .223 Rem with a slightly larger diameter base above the "rim" and shortened.

    There is no wildcat potential there. What would you do, make it a .223? One is far better off wildcatting the starline .223 straight than ever screwing around with the 350 Legend brass.

    I have spent several hundred hours on the .357RSM I designed from start to finish. Try to picture a .30 Carbine on steroids!

    BTW.....It wasnt me you contacted about the barrel tooling etc. I still have my original reamer and specialized barrel extensions etc.
    So many toys........so little time.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I tried to talk my buddy out of buying a .350 Legend. But the Savage with a cheap scope was on sale for $219 after rebate.

    It is a stupid cartridge. It has destroyed the niche your cartridge should have filled. IMHO.

    Who would not want to use plentiful .223/5.56 brass and .358 bullets? Winchester can screw up a wet dream.
    Don Verna


  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBH View Post
    Legend brass is nothing more than .223 Rem with a slightly larger diameter base above the "rim" and shortened.

    There is no wildcat potential there. What would you do, make it a .223? One is far better off wildcatting the starline .223 straight than ever screwing around with the 350 Legend brass.

    I have spent several hundred hours on the .357RSM I designed from start to finish. Try to picture a .30 Carbine on steroids!

    BTW.....It wasnt me you contacted about the barrel tooling etc. I still have my original reamer and specialized barrel extensions etc.
    If the "Basic" brass wasn't around then the Legend brass would be the thing for necking down into oddball sized wildcats like .25 or .338 caliber. The gentleman I'd talked to said that he was getting un-necked 223 and when the supply dried up (between then and when the Basic brass came out) he didn't really have a way to easily make the cases. I actually managed to fire form some trimmed down 5.56 cases and they came out pretty good although I did have more than a couple neck splits. I also didn't anneal either. I'm surprised it wasn't you although a lot of people surely have this idea there aren't gonna be too many who actually put something like that into production.

    The 30 carbine was inspired by the 351 WSL supposedly. Arguably the idea of the Legend or the 357RSM are both arguably modern takes of that in a way.

    Cool that you still have the tooling. The barrel extensions are custom? Are you doing DI or something else more like the CMMG radial blowback setup? If you make a run I'd be curious on pricing although it sounds like it's more effort than it's worth at some levels.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by drac0nic View Post
    The gentleman I'd talked to said that he was getting un-necked 223 and when the supply dried up (between then and when the Basic brass came out) he didn't really have a way to easily make the cases.
    Maybe it was me you "spoke" to. I'm getting older! I can't remember a discussion about tooling though. The only thing custom on the barrel extensions at that time was the open feed ramps. Today you can get lots of different ones that I didn't have the option of back then.
    So many toys........so little time.

  7. #7
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    stubshaft's Avatar
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    You can use a Lee custom sizer die to size down J words .003"-.005". I do it for my 9.3 bullets sized from .375" (have to ise 2 dies though).
    Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!

    Men who don't understand women fall into two categories: bachelors and husbands!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master


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    I have had very very good results with a Hornady 140FTX sized to 356 with two passes thru a LEE push thru bullet sizer. WITH a light coating of Imperial sizing wax.

    CW
    NRA Life member • REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    I was as dead set against the 350 Legend as anybody out there for all the reasons sighted by about everyone in Christendom. I sat down and tried to look at the cartridge objectively and my conclusions are my own.

    1) Why wouldn't you use a .358 bullet? With few exceptions, your dealing with pistol bullets, certainly not up to 2000 FPS velocity. Make a .355 diameter rifle bullet and avoid a lot of bad press when the .358 pistol bullet fails in the field.

    2) Proprietary rifle cases: Other than maybe a slight increase in case capacity, no other reason than Winchester sells ammo and reloading components. The majority of people out there do not reload, who would you court if your selling a product? This aspect I find particularly irritating since I have several five gallon buckets of .223 brass.
    Having heard all the nonsense that Winchester has been spewing about this cartridge or maybe in spite of it, I decided to try it out to see for myself.

    Purchased a Ruger American, slapped a Leupold 3x9 on it and sighted it in at dead on at 200 yards (My self imposed max range for this cartridge). Damned thing is pretty accurate, poker chip groups at 100 yards with factory 180 grains SP. Score one for the Legend. Mild recoil, like maybe less than a .243. Just the thing for a recoil sensitive or young shooter. Score two for the Legend. FIELD TEST: Where the rubber meets the road. Opening day in Ohio, a very accommodating doe sauntered out of the tree line right at 150 yards, quartering away. At the shot she ran not quite twenty yards. Post mortem: Heart, everything above the coronary band was gone, with complete pass through, silver dollar size exit wound, very little trauma (bruising, blood infused tissue). As a side bar, during the Ohio youth hunt, my hunting buddy bought Winchester's iteration in the compact version for his 12 year old grand daughter. A real nice doe at 130 yards and whale of a six pointer at 25. He used the 150 grain polymer tips.
    He said afterwards that he would shift to the 180's, the 150 did not pass through, it was never recovered, likely came out with the viscera during field dressing. Score three for the Legend? Perhaps, it did perform, no question, anything remarkable? Not really, solid performance, no question. I only tried it on one deer. Other were taken, but with different calibers. This wasn't a dissatisfaction with the 350's performance, I just have a lot of rifles and I like to use them. I intend to use it during the second season mostly because it weights half of a No.1.
    I've come to the conclusion that the explosive hype by Winchester probably harmed the acceptance of a cartridge to a relatively small segment of the shooting fraternity. In reality, it works pretty good within it's limitations but it won't cure baldness. These are my opinions, others will undoubtedly differ but I would encourage everyone to try it. No, it's not my new favorite caliber, but it isn't as bad as reputed.
    “Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.”
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master dkf's Avatar
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    I would have much preferred a company other than Winchester had come out with the .350 legend. They are not what they once were and their QC has been rather cruddy for a long time now. I was not surprised to the see the issues with their .350 legend ammo.

    Just from a bullet construction standpoint....There are a lot more .357"-.358" bullets out there able to withstand velocities circa what the .350 legend is capable delivering. That is not really the case with .355" pistol bullets.

    You can often get by using a larger bullet in a smaller bore. (Like companies putting .308 barrels on 7.62x39 rifles) But putting smaller bullets in a bigger bore almost never works well.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBH View Post
    Maybe it was me you "spoke" to. I'm getting older! I can't remember a discussion about tooling though. The only thing custom on the barrel extensions at that time was the open feed ramps. Today you can get lots of different ones that I didn't have the option of back then.
    http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/357rm.shtml

    I talked to the guy that ran this site. Maybe you're him. Maybe not. Also someone from "the guild" takes credit for the creation of this. I wouldn't be surprised if several people thought of it tbh. I mean it's a fairly "common sense" idea in its own right.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    It would appear that a number of individuals did some version of a 35 cal using 223 brass in the AR 15 platform. Most did it as one off wildcats.

    One individual, Moleman, posted what he was doing on several websites for a while. He was using his guns for hunting in a "straight wall" state. Eventually this resulted in enough demand for some "group buys" of the 357AR (357 max rimless) with a 1.6" case as described over at https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/?forum=645266.

    The group effort (with a lot of help from Moleman) went a long way at solving a lot of the "bugs" (making brass, developing load data, selecting bullets, magazine mods, feeding) inherent in the round. I bought a one off version just before the last batch run. Then the 350L came out and pretty much terminated any interest in continuing with new 357AR group buys.

    As far as the 350L, many folks either did not care about, or got over the "unfortunate choices" (9mm bore being called 0.357", tight neck, inability to use 223 brass) and jumped on board. The 350L is working just fine with for many with no issues at all. Most use factory ammo only. Some have had issues (bad ammo, bad feeding, bad accuracy) but other than the bad ammo, the issues seem to be typical for a new cartridge with new guns that are mostly entry level stuff.

    The 350L has resulted in better brass and bullet availability for a 35 cal AR-15 round than existed before it was introduced. AR-15 barrels can be had for well under $200 from multiple sources where I paid over $300 for my 357AR. Entry level bolt guns can be had from several vendors where the guns can be found for less than I paid for a barrel. Multiple source factory ammo makes the gun ok for non-hand-loaders and ammo cost is good.

    Was info related to the bore & bullet diameter mishandled by Winchester. I think so. I feel that even with the choice of 0.355" for bore and factory ammo, there was a potentially good basis and explanation that would have helped a lot.

    All in all, there are a lot of real blessings and some seem pretty big when compare to the real downsides. On the other hand, there are quite a few that have some emotional hurdles that they will just not get over. There will also be some that get turned off due to confusion, misunderstandings and/or outright misinformation.

    Will the round succeed anyway? Given it's potential, I sure hope so.
    Last edited by P Flados; 12-11-2019 at 09:44 PM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yeah, Moleman was the guy I was thinking of from the guild. It's kinda funny it's like they did the devolopment work and Winchester kinda just swooped in and made something similar on that basis. Then again there's more than a few wildcats that have been adapted like that in the last 100 years or so.

    The gun shop I go shooting at had a ton of 35 rem bullets. I may go buy a ton of em up now. I need another caliber like a hole in the head though. Maybe I'll convert my 450 Bushmaster to 350 after a while.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yes, Moleman and myself along with a few others have been playing with the 357 rimless for many years. He was involved in the forums more than I was. Though my case was 1.67" and his 1.60" essentially they were the same. I thought the extra .07" would give me a little more powder capacity, but when all I had was 5.56/.223 brass to form from I wish I cut the shoulder a little further back. It probably would have made expansion to .354" a little easier. It took 4 buttons after annealing back then. Thank you Starline......life is now easier.
    So many toys........so little time.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Dapaki's Avatar
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    I bought my first H&R Handi Rifle in 357 Mag the 1990's and followed it up quickly with a Buffalo Classic 45-70 and fell in LOVE with the straight wall, rimmed cartridge! When the 357 MAX sporadically made the news here and there, I got my 357 Mag rechambered to the MAX and had great fun.... for a while. Until I could no longer find brass and it became too much of a hassle to reload for it.

    I am pretty sure someone here has the rifle now, I hope it still shoots good!

    When the 350 legend made news at SHOT, I was again enamored with the straight wall* chambering and started reading everything I could find on it. When Bear Creek made an upper for it, I had to get it and try the new ammo, just to see if it was as fun as the MAX.

    Nope... the uppers flew off their shelves as fast as they were made. I finally got one with the 20" barrel in January after harassing them for a month to get back to work and get some uppers out!

    I ordered some brass from Star Line, picked up a couple boxes of the 145gr ammo from Cabela's and got a mold & dies from LEE and tried it out.

    Blessing or curse? Blessing for sure! I can wallop my steel at 25 yards with hand cast lead boolits all day long at nice cycle rates for about $0.10 a round (all startup costs amortized). The accuracy is better than my 45-70 and with the right scope, I can drop the 200 grianers on to a 24"x36" plate at 500 yards consistently. Quigley Jr?

    Next up is the 158gr semi wadcutter.

  16. #16
    Boolit Mold
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    I haven't heard Winchester or anyone in the industry saying the following, but it was immediately clear to me when they brought out the 350 Legend as to why the case head diameter and bullet diameter are what they are:

    The .350 Legend is simply the 9x23 Winchester pistol cartridge, but lengthened and with a slightly rebated rim. That is all. I have multiple 9x23 Win pistols and an AR upper in 9x23. Look up case drawings of the 9x23 and max pressure rating and compare to the .350 Legend. It didn't require on Winchester's part a brand new design from scratch, it yields a slightly tapered case for good extraction from a semi-auto, and it will handle 9mm bullets from .355 to .357" because it was originally designed as a PISTOL cartridge. I know Winchester is marketing it as a brand new hunting cartridge, and it works well for that, but if you think of it as a long semi-auto pistol cartridge with a lot more power, all the confusion goes away. I like the .350 Legend because now I can be assured of a less expensive source of brass for my 9x23--just cut, trim, and adjust my extractors for the slightly smaller rim!

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    It's neither blessing nor curse, just another ho hum round zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Well whether it is good or bad probably isn't worth worrying about all that much. it was primarily developed to be used in those states that allow only straight side cartridge cases and guns to be used. All they had prior to the .350 Legend was the .45-70 and others like it (.45-90,etc), the .450 Bushmaster, and the .357, .44 magnum rounds. Granted there are the wildcat cartridges too. But people want to buy off the shelf ammo from their gun stores. Anyway it was designed to be a short range cartridge in those states that limit one to straight sided cartridge case calibers and for semi-automatic rifles too. it offers less recoil than the 450 Bushmaster and the .45-70 too. Thus it is attractive to quite a few people. There are also a lot of people that don't want to have the higher recoil effects or they can't handle it anymore for that matter. The .45-70 is quite brutal in the small lever action rifles and the lightweight single shot rifles.
    Last edited by Earlwb; 02-16-2020 at 12:18 AM. Reason: typo

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Americans never support a 357 rifle cartridge. Why would any company feel obligated to go down that road again. It makes sense to use 9mm tooling. It has to be much easier to change over a 9mm bullet press to a 350 legend bullet.

    357 is the death warrant to a cartridge...

    I seriously believe that 357 anything is dying for commercially loaded ammo. In 20 years if your shooting 357 mag you will be handloading it

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    I have 3 rifles in 357 Max. A martini, a handi, and a falling block and all can chamber .358 bullets easily so no playing around to find a bullet that wount explode on game. To me a rimless strait wall case should stay with semiauto pistols where they stack nicely in a magazine but offer nothing for a hunting rifle unless you use a AR.

    Jedman

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check