Could old powder damage brass?

[fatelk]

To be honest, my strong inclination is that something I did wrong with the case cleaning and prep caused this somehow, and not the powder. I just want to consider all angles. Like I said, the powder looks and smells fine, and there's no sign of any corrosion of any sort on either the pulled bullet bases or the brass.

I'm going to do some more tinkering. I have a dozen uncracked, annealed, pulldown cases that I'll reassemble and test, as well as unloaded brass prepped the same way. I'll load and chronograph them. I'll even load some control rounds using powder from the unopened keg to look for any velocity discrepancies.

[Larry Gibson]

Not patronizing at all, just explain an obvious error...... walk it back any way you want....fine with me.

[Conditor22]

Some of the Accurate powders that have been recalled have been said to damage the brass cases
https://www.accuratepowder.com/

[dtknowles]

I had some .22 Hornet reloads that formed neck cracks while in storage. IMR powder, Sierra bullets, few times fired brass, brass not cleaned or tumbled, full length sized, no crimp. Never figured out why. Never happen again.

Tim

[BK7saum]

I have had new cases split on first firing before. It was determined that the cases were not annealed properly. They developed holes and cracks in the shoulders, not the necks. They were annealed and then fine after that. Brittle brass from a lack of proper annealing it. Work hardening/brittle brass is likely the cause. Just because it is 1x or 2x or new doesn't mean that it cant be brittle.

I dont see how your methods, powder, could be a cause, but you never know. I dont SS pin tumble, si mo help there.

[fatelk]

If it were only a few here and there splitting, I could understand that the problem could be worn out brass in need of annealing, but since I went from virtually no splitting in the past, to nearly 100% splitting now, it's safe to say there's something more going on here.

Just to get out of the house, my son and I went out to the range again this afternoon. I took the dozen uncracked RP cases that I had annealed and reloaded, along with a few loaded in cases that were prepped the same way but not annealed (and not pulled down from this batch).

I had exactly zero split cases this time. I chronographed a few (in the rain). This is another thing a little different about this powder, it seems to be a slow lot. When I worked up this load, I used the chronograph and some virgin brass to carefully measure for case head expansion. I felt it was a very good load, even though the charge was more than what I see listed for 2200 to attain appropriate velocity. It didn't worry me much because I've seen slow lots of surplus before.

So yes, the fact that I annealed a few cases that I salvaged from pulldown, and had no splits, seems to indicate that it is indeed a work-hardening embrittlement (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) and not some kind of chemical damage?

I'm still stumped, but my takeaway from this is to consider annealing all rifle brass that I wet tumble. I haven't had any split necks on other calibers, but I don't think I've shot any recently that I've wet tumbled and stored away for a while. 223/5.56 brass is disposable. I'll be really kicking myself if I start finding .300 Win Mag or 45/70 brass splitting.

[P Flados]

Even though wet tumbling does not seem to be a likely cause, it is an entirely optional step.

As an experiment, get some new once fired 223 brass and with the exception of tumbling, try to duplicate what you did for the problem batch. Set it aside and see what happens.

A more extreme approach would be to start loading your data 2200 powder with no tumbling at all. This would eliminate one possible area of concern.

I say this as somone who loads lots of ammo and never tumbles anything. And my loading includes plenty of 223 with surplus (WC 844) powder.

[JimB..]

Even though wet tumbling does not seem to be a likely cause, it is an entirely optional step.

As an experiment, get some new once fired 223 brass and with the exception of tumbling, try to duplicate what you did for the problem batch. Set it aside and see what happens.

A more extreme approach would be to start loading your data 2200 powder with no tumbling at all. This would eliminate one possible area of concern.

I say this as somone who loads lots of ammo and never tumbles anything. And my loading includes plenty of 223 with surplus (WC 844) powder.

I wouldn’t start with new brass since you don’t know the condition of it. Start with something like once fired LC brass from a single year, tumble it, then anneal half and not the other before loading.

I don’t know, but the small expander might be the culprit. It would result in higher neck tension which causes work hardening over time. So if testing, try some with it and some with a regular expander ball, some annealed and some not. Put it all in a box and open it once a year for 5 years.

[fatelk]

Interesting thought about the undersized expander. Could the slight amount of extra neck tension have a hand in this? I think I'll start using my Dillon dies more now, as well as annealing anything that might end up sitting very long.

On another note, I have about half of the ammo pulled down already, but I'm not looking forward to the thought of decapping 1500 live primers. I went on ebay and bought a .300 Blackout cutting jig and trimmer. If they don't split as .300 BO brass, I'll have a lifetime supply.

I have no real problem with decapping live primers, done lots of them, but that many is a real hassle.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It seems as though you ruled out the expander back in Post #16?

There is only one remaining possibility: Aliens.

[ACC]

It could. If the powder was old and in the process of going bad and you loaded it into your cases, the byproducts of smokeless powder braking down, could possibly do damage to a brass case, but it would take a while, a year or more.

ACC

[JBinMN]

It seems as though you ruled out the expander back in Post #16?

There is only one remaining possibility: Aliens.

Haha That's what he said: >>>>

[fatelk]

It seems as though you ruled out the expander back in Post #16?

There is only one remaining possibility: Aliens.

Nope, didn't rule it out, just didn't see how it would have caused a problem. On the other hand, the new expander ball from RCBS is something that changed...

I've checked over the dies. I have my original RCBS set that I bought new 30 years ago. A couple years ago I loaned them to a friend, who got a stuck case and broke the decapping stem trying to remove it. RCBS sent me a new stem and expander ball. The ball measures .2215". I measured the ball on a Dillon die, and it's .223". Perhaps that's an issue, but I don't see how?

ADDED: You're absolutely right though, it TOTALLY could be aliens. I hadn't really considered that angle. Aliens... sneakin' in my house, probin' my brass. Danged aliens anyway...

[fatelk]

Some of the Accurate powders that have been recalled have been said to damage the brass cases
https://www.accuratepowder.com/

By the way, Thank you for that!

I hadn't noticed the thread on the recall until you posted this. I don't think it's an issue at all in this particular brass problem, but it did cause me to check my powder supply and find that I have (had) and 8 lb jug of recalled 2495. It was puffed out like a balloon, and hissed when I opened it. I called Accurate and have a recall number and check on the way.

By the way, if you ever burn up an 8lb jug of powder, DON'T do it all at once! I have a big back yard with a good fire pit. I put a pound or two at a time in it and lit it off for the kids to watch. It was impressive; fireball 10 feet high! I can't imagine if I'd lit the whole thing at once. It hurts a little to watch $200 worth of powder go up in flames, but as I dumped it out we could smell that it was DEFINITELY bad. It stunk terrible.

[fatelk]

Attachment 252796

[gumbo333]

I don't know much about nothing, but have worked around ammonia a bit, I think if any ammonia was being formed and leaking thru the brass you would know it instantly as soon as you opened that ammo box. You guys bring up something foreign to me in my nearly 50 years of enjoying reloading, that is 'case cleaning' and 'annealing'. Never ever did it and I'm sure I've loaded some 6mm Rems at least 30 times, and some 270 Win 20 times. Neck sizing. When they get pretty old some split necks but have never seen a split shoulder/ body. I do trim when needed. Just my old fashioned ways.

[JimB..]

I don't know much about nothing, but have worked around ammonia a bit, I think if any ammonia was being formed and leaking thru the brass you would know it instantly as soon as you opened that ammo box. You guys bring up something foreign to me in my nearly 50 years of enjoying reloading, that is 'case cleaning' and 'annealing'. Never ever did it and I'm sure I've loaded some 6mm Rems at least 30 times, and some 270 Win 20 times. Neck sizing. When they get pretty old some split necks but have never seen a split shoulder/ body. I do trim when needed. Just my old fashioned ways.

Case cleaning is practically a hobby unto itself. It doesn’t take me any extra time, and I do enjoy the bling.

[Drm50]

I would suspect it is the brass itself, especially 223/5.56. They are running this stuff in the millions. I have seen cartridges ate up from inside. Older ammo with corrosive primer compounds and early smokeless powder. I bought several thousand rds of Govt 30 Krag in cloth bandoleers. Frankfort Arsenal 1905. Ammo was clean as new. Close inspection showed hair line crack from neck to shoulder. You could bust bullet out with light thumb pressure. Powder load was a greasy goo. The few that weren't cracked had same thing going on with powder.
Recently bought 3 boxes of 303 Savage from 20s that were same way. I have seen other old Ammo same way.
Other than that I think fired ammo that is not cleaned after shooting and lays for years the residue left combined with moisture corrodes and weakens brass. It common knowledge that the necks are first to go after case is loaded several times.

[Lloyd Smale]

loaded 25wssm for my buddys sons browning. Brass was factory ammo he had shot himself. I loaded 40 rounds and gave it back to him. He shot it that year and returned it and about a 1/3 of it had cracks in the necks. Then you take something like a 556. It could have been sitting loaded since the 60s before it was shot and you got it as once fired brass. Who knows what quality control the vendors for Uncle Sam used.

[fatelk]

As I mentioned before, this was all fairly recent manufacture range brass, mostly with headstamp dates in the past couple years. At the risk of sounding like a jerk, it’s NOT worn out brass.

I’m convinced at this point that it has something to do with case prep. Either way, I’m over it. I’ll reconsider my case prep procedures as I go on, and just move on.