Old jeep advice?

[samari46]

I had a 73 CJ5 with three on the floor plus 4 wheel drive high and low range.Straight 6 230 something HP. tore out the old locking hubs installed new ones redid all the bearings at the same time. New distributor,wires and plugs, floor boards were rotten so 1/8" steel plate front and back. Big mud and snow tires and all new springs front and back as well as new shocks. Diamond plate for the back floor and wrap around diamond plate back where the quarter panels. Forget what style high power lights on front bumper. Two chevy J hooks off a surburban on the bumper. I called it bucket of bolts. Had to take out the frame supports they were shot and new ones made out of 1/2" steel. real fun drilling the frame. for the new bolts. There was a 4 wheel drive place that sold anything for trucks 4 wheelers. On saturday must have been a good 20 guys out back doing lift kits,winches, anything you'd imagine. Place would get deliveries every other day trying to keep
up what with all the stuff being sold and installed out back. Some guy always volnteered to be the gofer. burgers,pizza,whatever. Some guyswould bring a generator to run an air compressor cause the one in the shop couldn't keep up. And forget about tools, hand operated and air driven. Jacks,ramps you name it. Frank

[Petrol & Powder]

That Chevy 153 4 cylinder isn't a powerhouse but parts are available (a lot of the minor components are the same as GM six cylinder parts).
I wouldn't be afraid of drum brakes without a booster, drum brakes don't require the high hydraulic pressure disc brakes do to achieve full braking force. Drum brake DO suffer when they get wet (something that happens with great frequency with an off-road vehicle). Informed operators know how to anticipate wet brakes and how to dry them.
That Jeep doesn't weigh a lot and drums will work just fine. Make certain the drums are true (you may need to have them turned on brake lathe). Make sure they are adjusted properly and check all of the lines. If the system still has the single piston master cylinder, really pay attention to all of the lines and hoses. A failure anywhere will disable the entire system. A lot of people convert those single piston master cylinders to duel piston master cylinders. With drums all around, the single piston setup work just fine, you just need to have a good hydraulic system (all lines, hoses and wheel cylinders in good condition).

[Todd N.]

That Chevy 153 4 cylinder isn't a powerhouse but parts are available (a lot of the minor components are the same as GM six cylinder parts).
I wouldn't be afraid of drum brakes without a booster, drum brakes don't require the high hydraulic pressure disc brakes do to achieve full braking force. Drum brake DO suffer when they get wet (something that happens with great frequency with an off-road vehicle). Informed operators know how to anticipate wet brakes and how to dry them.
That Jeep doesn't weigh a lot and drums will work just fine. Make certain the drums are true (you may need to have them turned on brake lathe). Make sure they are adjusted properly and check all of the lines. If the system still has the single piston master cylinder, really pay attention to all of the lines and hoses. A failure anywhere will disable the entire system. A lot of people convert those single piston master cylinders to duel piston master cylinders. With drums all around, the single piston setup work just fine, you just need to have a good hydraulic system (all lines, hoses and wheel cylinders in good condition).

You give the impression of a person who has no personal, hands-on experience with a Flatfender. Since the release of the MB and GPW, drivers (and their terrified passengers) have cursed the poor brake system that came on these vehicles. Going back through decades of various Hot Rod type magazines, anyone can see that the second most-common alteration done to a flatfender is to upgrade the brakes. Why? Because they suck! There is nothing that can be done to the original 9" brake system to make it compare to brake systems in use even in the '40s! That system was designed for ease of manufacture, low cost to manufacture, and ease of field repair. They didn't perform when the jeeps were brand new and they don't perform now. Go back to the 1950's & 60's and read all the ads in the car magazines about brake upgrades- EVERYBODY KNEW IT WAS A WORTHLESS SYSTEM! The 11" drum brake upgrade was the standard for years. Jeep dealers, JC Whitney, enterprising junkyard owners and auto parts wholesalers, and speed shops everywhere offered true bolt-on kits for the little flattie. People quickly learned that the parts were just the standard brakes from the Jeep pickup.
The Achilles heel was still the single chamber master cylinder. One defect or failure in any part of the brake system and your brakes were non-existent.
Some enterprising guy figured out how to mount hanging brake and clutch pedals in a jeep and the quality and safety took a giant leap forward. As disc brake systems became the norm, people started adapting them to jeeps. 4 wheel discs are a boon for jeeps! Contrary to some OPINIONS, disc brakes do not require high pressure to operate- no booster needed. As I said before, my daughter was 13 years old driving my CJ5 thru all the rock crawler trails at Moab. If a 13 year old girl can make the brakes work, I'm sure a grown man can too. These days, the only time you see original brakes on a Flatfender is either on a full restoration or it is owned by someone who is lacking the money, skills, or guts to upgrade.
One last reason to dump the 9" brakes...

Your 9" brakes blew a wheel cylinder or a master cylinder on the trail? Park your jeep, hike home, order replacements from Autozone or O'Reillys or off the web, and wait, wait, wait. You'll undoubtedly get someone to tow you back to camp or a parking lot but you are still out of commission with no repair parts easily accessible. I truly hope you trailered your jeep to the outing instead of driving it there- at least your tow rig will get you home.

As a different example, my CJ5 has 4 wheel disc brakes. I can take my hands of the wheel at 65 mph, step on the brake pedal and it will stop in a straight line. And it will do it as fast as that Honda Accord in the next lane. If I blow a caliper at Moab, on the Rubicon Trail, or miles up in the Cascade Mountains where I often hunt, repair parts are just a few hours away.

Lastly, in the original post BD mentioned not only his desire to drive at highway speeds but to include his grandkids in the jeep hobby. Those original brakes do not hold up to safe use for either of those parameters. Besides, it's so damn cheap to upgrade the brakes now. Why wouldn't you???

[Petrol & Powder]

OK , thanks for talking down to me, now it's my turn.

I've owned and worked on a lot of vehicles with drum brakes and I just might understand a bit more about them than you think I do.

The braking force from drum brakes is highly dependent on surface area. Larger diameter drums and wider shoes will provide more surface area and therefore more braking force.
The braking force of disc brakes is more a factor of pressure on the pads but as the forces build up, more surface area helps to handle the additional heat. One of the reasons racing applications have four piston calipers is to allow greater force on the pads without having to increase the diameter of the rotor.

Disc brakes are less susceptible (but not immune) to brake fade from excessive heat. And, disc brakes handle being wet better than drum brakes. However, disc brakes require more hydraulic force than drums. That doesn't mean a 13 year can't operate disc brakes without a brake booster but it does mean the brake pedal may require a little more force to achieve the same result.

When a brake shoe contacts the inside of the drum, the rotating drum tries to pull the shoe around with the drum and this force is transmitted to the pivot of the bottom of the shoe. The geometry of the shoe/wheel cylinder/pivot helps to pull the shoe against the drum. This is why the leading shoe tends to wear faster than the trailing shoe on drum brake systems. It is also why brake boosters are less common on systems with drums all the way around.
On a disc brake system the only force pushing the pads into the rotors is the hydraulic pressure applied to the piston(s) in the caliper.
On a disc brake system, more hydraulic force equals more braking force (to a point). That doesn't mean disc brakes must have a booster but it does mean the disc brakes benefit more from a booster.

You will get NO argument from me that disc brakes are superior to drum brakes.
Disc brakes handle heat better (to a point), the are far better when wet and they can generate more braking force with a more compact/lighter setup.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean every vehicle in the world with drum brakes is a death trap.

A 2500lb Jeep going 50 mph is not the same thing as a 7000lb fully loaded Suburban going 90mph down a mountain.
9" drums and skinny shoes aren't the best brakes in the world but I've driven a lot of vehicles with 10" drums and 2" shoes. Somehow I managed to live and I didn't kill anyone else.

As for single piston master cylinders, I've had my share. A hydraulic failure in a single piston master cylinder system is a serious problem but for a long time, that system was the norm. You maintain those systems carefully and they work just fine. They just aren't very forgiving if they leak.

I'm NOT a 13 year old girl and I would appreciate if you would refrain from addressing me as if I was ignorant.

[Sam Casey]

Helped our daughter dump her Jeep and buy a Toyota 4R. She could not be happier.

[BD]

I bought the ’49. My wife loves it!, (I knew she would as it doesn’t look like junk, and it can be driven as is, to a point). The top is excellent. Doors need a little adjustment, but it is a real winter top for sure. It is definitely shiny on top. The gauges are all there and work, except the gas gauge, which the seller warned me about. Kenwood radio with Blue Tooth. I’d tear it out but Maine just passed a phone law with a $250 fine for talking with no Blue Tooth in a vehicle. Another stupid law, no exceptions for being at a stop light, or off road. The motor looks like a recent rebuild of a Chevy 11 from the early ‘60’s. It starts, runs, idles, has a manual choke and fresh paint, (painted while stripped down to the block). The only downside is a plate over the fuel pump and a chesey electric pump hose clamped to the frame with the ground tucked under the hose clamp. The paint on the body looks great but it is a “for sale” paint job. The tub looks great above, but was not pulled so it shows it’s age underneath, (originally red), and they painted over the crud on the axles and drive train. I can see some repairs underneath, (welded in fender well exhaust, welded front and rear cross members, some repair work for the aftermarket fender on one side), nothing scary and no bondo splurging in through rusted out areas. The hat channel rust is all outboard of the frame rails, (probably from the couple of winters in Minnesota). Inboard of the frame rails is well protected by leaking tranny/transfer oil over the years. Title search say’s it’s an Arizona jeep for 90% of it’s recorded history.
The drive chain has been neglected. I pressure washed it and was able to determine that it has a Warne OD unit and a Saginaw steering setup. I cannot make out the transmission, transfer case or axle info. I’ll need to get under there with a scraper and then a cup brush to read that stuff. The only stuff that looks like it’s seen attention in the last 20 years is the front axle. The steering parts are clean, there’s new rubber brake line connectors and a new set of Warne lock out hubs. Front driveshaft slip joint is very sloppy/wobbly. I did put the hubs in and drive it around the yard and experienced no untoward noises. On the downside the brakes are box stock 1949 and they are terrible. Reminds me of the original brakes on my ’58 Chevy panel truck in high school. I may pull the steering wheel off while cramming down on the brakes to get it to a halt. No sign of any of the emergency brake setup anywhere. That’s a bummer. It has four brand new Firestone 6.00-16 NDTs with the nubs still on them, and a bare 15x8 rim for a spare? The NDTs are no good at all on the packed snow/ice in my dooryard. This needs real modern tires and brakes.
It sits a couple of inches too high. The front and rear spring shackles look very long, although it is level. It has auxiliary “steps” , (to help short people get in ?) The steering radius seems wide to me. Lock to lock the edge of the stock 6.00-16 NDTs are 2” from hitting the springs. Is this correct? Center line of the front spring upper shackle bolt is 20” off the floor. How high over stock is that? The rear top shackle bolt is 18-1/2” off the floor. What I remember about the MB is crushed stamped steel shackles that were only maybe 3-4” bolt to bolt? I remember replacing these as they made some noise after being crushed, (six big guys driving down over the ridge to “crash” the party, and I mean “crash” in the literal sense).
Bottom line is that this is someone’s DD in 2WD ,or parade jeep, that someone built a good top for and then painted and sold to two brothers from Maine.
But, it made my wife happy!
I think the Geo-Tracker disc adaptors in the front, and maybe some larger drums which would accept an e-brake cable setup in the rear are in order sooner, rather than later.

[Shawlerbrook]

Looks like you( and your wife) made the right choice!

[Petrol & Powder]

My guess on those front shackles is someone was trying to achieve the correct height with springs that lacked the original arch.

The electric fuel pump was probably just an expedient shortcut during the build. That's an easy fix if you want to return it to a mechanical fuel pump but since it isn't an all original Jeep anyway, that's probably not important. I believe that 153 uses the same fuel pump as the 230 or 250 Chevy straight six engine; so they're easy to find. In fact, that 153 has a lot of parts in common with the 230/250 engines.

The big turning radius could just be due to the closed knuckle front axle (I assume it has the closed knuckles?) or maybe that Saginaw steering setup needs some attention? Or maybe some combination of both? Perhaps it had big tires at some point and someone adjusted the steering to prevent interference and never put it back when skinny tires were installed?

[Reg]

A great reference source is The CJ-2A Pages on the internet, there is one for the 3-A's as well also there are tons and tons of parts out there for the old flat tops Ebay is a good source for new and used parts and there are several new parts dealers out there. Check the internet.
Many new parts are now made in the Philippines in fact you can get enough new parts to actually build a flat top out of a catalog if you wish.
Hate to tell you this but get one flat top and you will want another !!!!!