"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
You are absolutely right Randy, I use the teflon plumbers tape, that is stretched thin when wrapping the RB. I use it for lubrication, and to eliminate any possible leading. Also a slow twist needed, for the RB, maybe 1-66, similar to the muzzle loaders setup for the RB.
congratulations, i always wanted to do the round ball but never did. however; i just shot a nice 6 pt buck with my lyman foster that i modified (swaged) to .734 and filled the base with beeswax with one 1/4 hard wad saturated with bore butter for lubricant then another 1/4 hard wad and one 1/2 wad and an x12x over bluedot. that was my 7th buck with this load. gives me a real satisfaction to be able to be self sufficient. i'm shooting an 870 fully rifled bbl. and i have complete confidence.
if the guy Cain was located in ill. he died a few years back. he did a shot gun for a few folks i know. and also some custom rifles for myself and a friend of mine.
I got that Randy and if wrapping a cylinder I agree but trying to wrap a round ball evenly? I don't think I could do it. If the tape is uneven or wrinkled at all that will cause localized drag and likely cause random spin.
The tape may also start to unwrap as it doesn't stick to itself well. It stretches thin and looks great on threads but if you find the end it come loose easily.
Maybe not an issue from rifled gun due to spin stabilizing but from smoothbore I'd bet it wouldn't help accuracy. I've been wrong before though... lots! Maybe that is something else for me to try... I've got 0.735" RB's and I've got Teflon tape. Easy enough to give it a go on a few balls. This would be from smoothbore.
Longbow
I know I get a confetti show out the muzzle, when I fire the RB with the teflon tape wrap. I had just been wondering if that is all the tape, or is there some tape stuck or swaged onto the RB? I just don't know. I suspect that all of it is off within a few feet from the muzzle. I don't have high speed photography available to me to prove anything, one way or the other.
Makes sense to me that it sheds the tape within mere feet of the muzzle.
As with patched balls in a muzzleloader, the patch is fallen off by 10 feet or so.
The Teflon tape would be shredded at the hemisphere as it travels down the rifled barrel. Being cut and taking to the grooves, the tape should have zero influence on flight as it sheds very fast out of the barrel. Once the barrel imparts the twist and RPM's to the ball and the tape is shed, the only thing influencing the ball is air.
I see no reason that cloth, Teflon tape or anything that helps the ball make a positive contact with rifling and helps seal the gas behind its run down the barrel shouldn't be accurate. Round balls get good accuracy if spun just rite. Less from smooth bores but they will do (as mentioned) minute of deer up to a range only determined by testing.
This is where I'm at with round balls outta a rifled shotgun barrel. I am planning tests of my own smooth and my rifled barrel as well. Should be a fun romp.
You guys may be right on the Teflon tape separating from the ball. However, it is kinda stringy and being wrapped all the way around the ball it is not like a paper patch that gets cut by rifling then opens up as the bullet leaves the barrel. Maybe the tape is cut by rifling and the back half separates and front half stays on? Who knows? But I guess the short story is it is working for GBertolet so does it matter?
I don't have high speed cameras either so my opinion is speculation.
Something that will be happening soon though is a test of ACWW 0.735" RB's in fully rifled barrel by Blood Trail! I sent him 2 dozen balls he is loading up for accuracy testing to 100 yards and pressure testing. I hope he videos as well which I think he is planning. These will be naked 0.735" RB's. I am looking forward to BT's test results! I'm hoping he has enough after testing to shoot a hog with one too.
I'd like to do the same with 0.678" RB's in shotcups. Hogtamer did some testing a couple or three years ago and got mediocre results at 100 yards. Not sure of the fit in his barrel and I think fit would have to be really tight or with the small contact the ball could skid in the wad. 725 uses a 0.702" RB in a shotcup and that has to be TIGHT in a rifled barrel... or even smoothbore but it works for him. I find the 0.678" RB;s are a good fit in some wads but a bit loose in others in my smoothbore. I use a paper tube in the shotcup to tighten them up if necessary.
In my experience with smoothbore, round balls do very well to 50 yards or so but by 100 yards groups are getting pretty large and inconsistent. I think a rifled gun and good load with round ball should do as well as a slug to 100 yards.
So, if you do a test and BT does a test we should be getting some good info and results... and we have some people who are getting good success now.
Longbow
Rifling could be done on an old rifling machine. Pull through cutter guided by whatever twist rate you cut the guide for. I'd guess (emphasize guess), it would be a rather slow twist rate.
Yeah, round ball twist for 12 ga. ball runs about 1:120". I've made a rifling bench about 4 years ago for making rifled choke tube with 1:72" twist to try out. My logic was that I might want to shoot elongated HB slugs too so I wanted a compromise twist to handle a shortish conical too.
I rifled a piece of 3/4" pipe and that went quite well. Subsequently I bought a blank choke tube then bored it to 0.690" so I could cut deep rifling with narrow lands and wide grooves. Rifling didn't go well! My cutter was based on the Toad Hollow cutter made from the edge of a file, so small multi tooth. It cut the steel pipe quite well but the choke tube is hard (heat treated?) stainless and appears to work harden. Progress was SLOW! So I remade the cutter to single tooth and that seemed to do it but maybe a bit aggressive... it cut small curls of metal so good but it bit in and jammed. While unjamming the cutter I moved the choke tube without knowing and put it out of time then made another cut. Oops! Rifling got a bit messed up and I lost enthusiasm. One day I'll get back to it.
Anyway, modern rifled barrels and choke tubes are rifled quite fast at about 1:36" but during the little shooting I did in a borrowed rifled gun I recovered one 0.735" RB and the rifling was nice and crisp so no skidding. So maybe the rifling isn't too fast?
I'll wait to see how BT and bigted do with their tests.
Longbow
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
Let's see hoe BT's tests go. He'll be using naked balls maybe tumble lubed. In all the 0.735" RB shooting I did leading was not an issue though I only shot a few through a rifled gun so not much experience there.
It would be interesting to get BT to try some Teflon tape wrapped balls too but he is already putting a fair bit of effort into this so maybe a bit much to ask and he only has 2 dozen RB's to play with.
I just may have to try wrapping a ball to see how it goes but I'd have to think that if leading is a problem tumble lube or powder coating the RB's would be easier than Teflon tape. However, GBertolet has a winning combination with what he is doing so hard to find fault in that.
Anyway, back to high speed video... I wonder if Taofledermaus would do a test of wrapped balls? They have already shot video of 0.735" RB's shot from both smoothbore and rifled gun with really good results from rifled gun and not bad from smoothbore but as usual pretty abbreviated tests.
It would be interesting to see if the tape does shred and leave or if some stays with the ball. Also interesting to see would be wad columns leaving the muzzle under slugs and balls. I think the wad column is a weak point in out loading. RanchDog went to all card wad column with Lee slugs in shotcups with the cushion leg and gas seal cut off for that reason... stable wad column. I'm betting that many wads do not collapse evenly under slugs or balls so when they leave the muzzle the gas seal is tilted somewhat leading to inaccuracy, like a poor base on a boolit. RB's on trap wads with petals cut off or sub bore balls in shotcups would see the same effect.
To note, the Russian slugs with proprietary tail wads are like Gualandi DGS slug tail wads, they are pretty beefy and symmetrical which is even more important for them because they stay with the slug so can't be allowed to distort much or that would cause inaccuracy.
So... might just be worth proposing some high speed video testing to Taofledermaus to see what they do and what we can learn. Good idea Randy!
Longbow
Typically all rifled shotgun barrels are intended for saboted slugs, not round balls, so the rifling twist rates reflect what is best for these slugs. A round ball typically performs it's best, with a much slower twist rate. I am unaware of any factory loaded, full caliber round ball ammunition, only saboted and foster type slugs. Only us adventurous hand loaders use the round ball today, and we are a minority, so outside of a custom made barrel, we are resigned to use the factory designated, standard barrels. In retrospect, they tend to give satisfactory performance with the round ball, for our hunting needs.
I have played with shooting .69 RB through an IC barrel on an 970 Express Magnum. First efforts were made with home brew wads made of paper pulp formed in a press. It worked okay, but was basically 'paper plate groups' at 50 yards. I had seen better results but I was just trying something 'different.'
I later bought some double cupped wads, basically a gas seal on either end. I have not had the chance to test them yet, and plan to fold crimp and roll crimp. On the subject of PC balls, I do the ASBBPC and ESPC methods. I have had better results with repeatable thicknesses from ASBBPC than ESPC, but that was never tried specifically to PC for increased thickness with the latter. PC is more for looks than function, but function will be specifically tested. Cool colors are just cool, but will likely be gloss black or grey.
I think the double cup wads will do quite well, and plan to use corn meal in the payload cup for height adjustment as it is easy to measure. I may try paper patching the RB to hold it in place as well as for fitment. Ultimate goal however, is a rifled barrel 20 ga 870 Wingmaster Express specifically for RB. Either 12 or 20, goal is for 1000 - 1100 fps, and expected range 25 to 50 yards as a pig buster/fun range gun that won't be punishing for youth shooters.
I've got a few grand kids, and they seem to be stacking up this past year. Sure, I started shooting full 12 ga loads when I was 8, I was not a big kid having started High School at 5' tall. I just think I had a great teacher in my Dad, and so was not recoil shy. Today's generation has been indoctrinated to think guns are evil already, recoil would only add to the fear factor. Sure, I could teach them gradually and hope for the best
My Wife actually won the 20 ga 870 at a Ducks Unlimited dinner but gifted it to me. I had her shoot it and she didn't care for it. Some years later, she inherited a Win 1897 12 ga, and had to shoot it. Somehow, she didn't mind the recoil at all. I think if I make the 20 ga a RB shooter, she will enjoy shooting it more. She likes 00 buck and slugs through her 870 12 ga, she will love how cheap loading RB for the 20 and buck for the 870 as I cast for both. For the 00 Buck, I plan on buying some semi clear hulls, and layering some red, white, and blue as suggested by my brother, and zombie green for me. Range rounds will likely just be black or barbie pink. What the heck, range day shooting can be fun!
Common sense Gun Safety . . .
Is taught at the Range!
My son wanted to shoot 12 ga. at 10 years old and he wasn't a big kid. One round was all it took to change his mind... at least about "standard" loads. He wanted a 12 ga. and started saving his money for one so I paid for half the price of a used 870 and he had his first adult shotgun. My solution was to download and pattern for him. I don't recall the load specifics except it was a 1 1/8 oz. payload over Unique. I dropped the powder charge by about 10% or so and that did it. He could handle the recoil and we sorted out a range where the pattern was good so that was his max. range.
I think a faster powder would be a better choice but that worked out and I had lots of Unique so... make do!
Easy to do when you are a handloader.
I am sure if you download those RB loads for the 20 ga. young 'uns and wife will be able to handle them easily and enjoy shooting them. Big holes always impress!
For those 0.690" RB's I'd suggest a donut wad on top of the cornmeal filler to keep the RB centered. If you lift it out of the cup with filler it may not stay centered. Or put the filler under the cup to get the RB to crimp height. I'd also say that I think fold crimp would be better for 0.690" RB as it may be a bit small to open a roll crimp.
Good round ball loads through smoothbore should give 4" or better groups out to at least 50 yards.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Have fun regardless!
Longbow
Okay thanks,got it.
I just find rifled barrel / RB an interesting combo. For no real reason,again. I'm not very good at making sense.
But accurate guns are interesting.
We stray away from RB off and on but it does not take us long to realize at our river bottom ranges no slug works better. Our longest shot to date is 33yards and most are under 20 yards. I hope I can stay down by the water the rest of my life while thwapping corn crunchers.
"Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
Male Guanaco out in dry lakebed at 10,800 feet south of Arequipa.
Mike: I bet those round balls you load are going much faster due to the air density at 10,000 feet?
Randy
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |