Open Theism

[1hole]

If God knows our free will choices before we make them, does that mean we are destined to make wise or foolish choices from the beginning of time. In essence, our free will Choices are preordained and known by God?
... We cannot take a path different than what God expects?

God only corrects our paths when He sees the need to do so and none of us feel any compulsion when that happens. Otherwise we are quite free to do as we wish and that's most of the time. For Him to know or do less makes Him less than God and for Him to do more makes us puppets; neither of those ideas are true.

Humans can hardly understand it but God exists outside of time and space so, in His eyes, everything is right here and right now. He certainly knows our every move before we were born but presuming that if God simply knows what we are going to do demands that it's His fault when we do bad things does not logically follow. At the bottom line, we are responsible for ourselves.

[dtknowles]

God only corrects our paths when He sees the need to do so and none of us feel any compulsion when that happens. Otherwise we are quite free to do as we wish and that's most of the time. For Him to know or do less makes Him less than God and for Him to do more makes us puppets; neither of those ideas are true.

Humans can hardly understand it but God exists outside of time and space so, in His eyes, everything is right here and right now. He certainly knows our every move before we were born but presuming that if God simply knows what we are going to do demands that it's His fault when we do bad things does not logically follow. At the bottom line, we are responsible for ourselves.

You know all this how? Seems like you are the one making things up.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Theism in a nutshell demotes God to a pagan demi god, it's an empowerment scam for people with serious daddy issues who border on atheism but want the false social "one up" of believing in something as opposed to their peers who believe in nothing and since theism is just a generic version of hindiusm basically it gives a place for intellectual fence sitters to virtue signal,entertain moral relativism and mock God from without adhering to anything. it's religion for hipsters, leftwingers, liberals & attracts people who are rebellious and ego driven who usually don't want to be accountable & are pissed off at the only real God. My generation watched that idiotic community implode along with Atheist, feminists & Newage cults that have a lot of cross over. hahaha ~ from a Far Right Christian

Which kind of Theism are you talking about. Christians are Theists, some are not even MonoTheists, they believe in a God comprised of three parts.

When you say Theists what group are you talking about. Not all Theists believe the same thing.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Much can be cleared up if we realize the flood might have been localized--where all the people were at that time. This would make the logistics much easier for Noah and his family.

People had spread across the world millennia before Noah.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

That is the problem. My pastor believes in the New Earth view because he believes the universe was created in six 24 hr days and the chronological history of the descendants of Adam and Eve. He is as certain of that as I am that man and dinosaurs did not coexist.

This makes me prone to question his conclusion on other things when I believe he is wrong on something so simple. I doubt I am alone in these feelings. By insisting the Bible is inerrant and that Genesis takes place over six 24hr days...my pastor has no wiggle room. If he could accept that God was not constrained to our definition of a day, it would open his now firmly closed mind.

Have you read about the behemoth in the Book of Job? The description sure sounds like a dinosaur to me.

I doubt you'll find any teacher you will agree with 100% and often you will find a bit of wacky theology tucked away in most peoples' beliefs. You have to sort out the good stuff from the questionable material. The only way you can do this is through independent study to learn what the Bible actually says. It's not an easy or fast process.

[Ickisrulz]

People had spread across the world millennia before Noah.

Tim

No kidding? You have a proven date of when Noah was alive?

[dtknowles]

No kidding? You have a proven date of when Noah was alive?

The earliest would be related to the technology needed to make the Ark.

Tim

This is from a earlier post.

Cultures all over the world have flood stories that are similar to the Bible's account.
I did not say there was no flood, I said there was no Ark. The fact that Cultures all over the world have flood stories put lie to the Biblical account of the flood killed everyone but Noah's family. Anyway the idea that the flood would have wiped out the people who lived high in the Andes and Himalayas is just preposterous as is the idea that the Southeast Asians were descended from Noah.

Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians.

Tim

[dverna]

Have you read about the behemoth in the Book of Job? The description sure sounds like a dinosaur to me.

I doubt you'll find any teacher you will agree with 100% and often you will find a bit of wacky theology tucked away in most peoples' beliefs. You have to sort out the good stuff from the questionable material. The only way you can do this is through independent study to learn what the Bible actually says. It's not an easy or fast process.

Yes I read about the behemoth jn Job. Do not know what to make of it with assurance. I doubt that thousands or millions of dinosaurs roamed the earth with early man, or dinosaurs would have had a little more "press" in the bible than snakes, lions and bears. And the fossil remains tell a different story...there I go putting science into the mix LOL.

And you are right about needing to pick and choose. My pastor delivers sermons that make me think so I find a lot of value in them. I do not have to agree with 100% of his thoughts to benefit from the 90% that help me.

[Ickisrulz]

The earliest would be related to the technology needed to make the Ark.

Tim

This is from a earlier post.

Cultures all over the world have flood stories that are similar to the Bible's account.
I did not say there was no flood, I said there was no Ark. The fact that Cultures all over the world have flood stories put lie to the Biblical account of the flood killed everyone but Noah's family. Anyway the idea that the flood would have wiped out the people who lived high in the Andes and Himalayas is just preposterous as is the idea that the Southeast Asians were descended from Noah.

Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians.

Tim

When I was a kid I visited Sea World (30+years ago). During the orca show, the narrator gave the audience details about how the orca evolved. Then he said, "We don't know if the orca sleeps." I remembering thinking, "How can they know all about the evolutionary history of an animal and not know if it sleeps?" I was convinced at that point that scientists don't know as much as they'd like us to think they know. It is my judgement that this is especially true when dealing with subjects such as evolution and astrophysics (i.e., where theories cannot be tested). What they present as facts are guesses needed to fill in the blanks. I will not let "science" dictate my beliefs.

BTW, I know what science now believes about these animals shutting down half their brain at a time.

[Ickisrulz]

Yes I read about the behemoth jn Job. Do not know what to make of it with assurance. I doubt that thousands or millions of dinosaurs roamed the earth with early man, or dinosaurs would have had a little more "press" in the bible than snakes, lions and bears. And the fossil remains tell a different story...there I go putting science into the mix LOL.

And you are right about needing to pick and choose. My pastor delivers sermons that make me think so I find a lot of value in them. I do not have to agree with 100% of his thoughts to benefit from the 90% that help me.

I saw a program years ago that was in search of real life dragons. They pointed out that many cultures had dragon myths or illustrations of people with dragon-like creatures. Their conclusion was that a creature like this might have actually co-existed with man.

Job is the oldest book of the Bible. You do not see a behemoth mentioned in any other book. It's a mystery that is fun to think about, but nothing can be concluded.

I think the age of the dinosaurs began and ended before God created man (as told in Genesis). As you know, I am persuaded that if we knew the history of the earth before Genesis 1:1, the evidence suggested by the fossil record would make sense. But we don't. God seems to always leave a little room for doubt.

[dtknowles]

When I was a kid I visited Sea World (30+years ago). During the orca show, the narrator gave the audience details about how the orca evolved. Then he said, "We don't know if the orca sleeps." I remembering thinking, "How can they know all about the evolutionary history of an animal and not know if it sleeps?" I was convinced at that point that scientists don't know as much as they'd like us to think they know. It is my judgement that this is especially true when dealing with subjects such as evolution and astrophysics (i.e., where theories cannot be tested). What they present as facts are guesses needed to fill in the blanks. I will not let "science" dictate my beliefs.

BTW, I know what science now believes about these animals shutting down half their brain at a time.

I let nothing dictate my beliefs, I form my beliefs based on the weight of the evidence. We know almost nothing for certain but like a jury at a trial. I look at the evidence and make my best judgement. I neither disregard the Bible (or other books) not do I disregard science. I judge them based on their providence.


In this example, I used big round numbers.

"Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians."

To show that even if the scientists got it wrong by tens of thousands of years the East Asians would not have descended from Noah.

Some things are more easily believed than others and the harder they are to believe the better the evidence needs to be.

Tim

[Blackwater]

Amen, Ickisrulz! The mysteries make the reading and consideration of the scriptures so much more interesting and perplexing, keeping us humble and in our proper place with respect to God and Christ. I am aways amazed and gently prodded to keep reading, and considering what's written. Maybe it's "bait," put there to keep us within our proper perspective as we read the scriptures? I personally have no problem being perplexed by some passages. After all, He is God and we're just mere mortals, struggling to understand, and get fleeting glimpses of God's works and wisdom that He's given to us to contemplate. We're to contemplate the scriptures, NOT "swallow them whole" as Abe Lincoln said. We'll always have questions to our dying day - things that we don't fully understand, but want to. That's just the way it is, and it's part of what makes gathering together to discuss such matters that keeps us learning and growing. I don't think that's a bad thing. Mortal man will never truly understand God, but we can understand, at least generally, His nature and intent, and at least some of His wisdom. He left it there in the Bible so we could do that, but it takes, as Ick says, a lifetime, and even then we'll still have some questions left. What we CAN glean from it, and our discussions and considerations of the content, is sufficient to our purposes. After all, the esssence and essentials are very simple. Even my young Down's syndrome cousin "gets" it! And I'm just grateful for what He has revealed to me in my own perusings and study. When one has to work for something, we appreciate it so much more!

[Ickisrulz]

I let nothing dictate my beliefs, I form my beliefs based on the weight of the evidence. We know almost nothing for certain but like a jury at a trial. I look at the evidence and make my best judgement. I neither disregard the Bible (or other books) not do I disregard science. I judge them based on their providence.


In this example, I used big round numbers.

"Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians."

To show that even if the scientists got it wrong by tens of thousands of years the East Asians would not have descended from Noah.

Some things are more easily believed than others and the harder they are to believe the better the evidence needs to be.

Tim

Despite contemporary shipbuilding technology, it is possible that God instructed Noah on how to construct a large rectangular cube that would float. Do you discount the miraculous?

[dtknowles]

……...As you know, I am persuaded that if we knew the history of the earth before Genesis 1:1, the evidence suggested by the fossil record would make sense. But we don't. God seems to always leave a little room for doubt.

I don't believe that there is any history of the Earth before Genesis 1:1. I believe that Genesis 1:1 describes the Big Bang.

Genesis 1:2 describes the chaos that was the universe between the time of the Big Bang and the formation of the first galaxies.

Genesis 1:3 this could actually be the description of the Big Bang and Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 could be the conditions before the Big Bang but don't believe in a before the Big Bang. That would mean Genesis 1:3 is the first light from the Galaxies before the Stars and Planets were formed.

Genesis 1:4 is clear the heavenly bodies as we know them today are formed.

Genesis 1:5 is the Earth rotating on its axis as it travels around the Sun that creates days and nights.

Genesis 1:6-10 is the Earth surface separating into Air, Land and Sea.

Genesis 1:11-15 is the Earth becoming fertile and the beginnings of life.

Genesis 1:16-19 seems to get things out of order as current science has the Sun, Moon and Stars preceeding the origin of life on Earth. These things were really established back in Genesis 1:4-5.

Genesis 1:20-25 is the rise of animals, the first animals, the animals before Dinosaurs and all the animals that came before the rise of Modern Humans (Homo Sapiens Sapiens.)

Genesis 1:26-30 is the rise of Modern Humans and Human's domination of everything on the planet.

Here we are today.

Tim

[1hole]

...I saw a program years ago that was in search of real life dragons. They pointed out that many cultures had dragon myths or illustrations of people with dragon-like creatures. ....

I think the age of the dinosaurs began and ended before God created man (as told in Genesis). As you know, I am persuaded that if we knew the history of the earth before Genesis 1:1, the evidence suggested by the fossil record would make sense.

That's what I had always assumed. Then, in a solid rock creek bed in Texas, fossilised dynosaur tracks were found (and photographed) with human footprints over laying those of the big lizard so I no longer assume that! (In that, I have also learned that God does have a sense of humor.)

The Big Bang may have happened but astronomers have well proven it's NOT the starting point of the universe as we know it. (Again proving God does play with pompous scientists!)

[dtknowles]

That's what I had always assumed. Then, in a solid rock creek bed in Texas, fossilised dynosaur tracks were found (and photographed) with human footprints over laying those of the big lizard so I no longer assume that! (In that, I have also learned that God does have a sense of humor.)

The Big Bang may have happened but astronomers have well proven it's NOT the starting point of the universe as we know it. (Again proving God does play with pompous scientists!)

You care to provide reference for these assertions?

Tim

[1hole]

You care to provide reference for these assertions?

Tim

I have a couple of books (with photos) for my "assertions" but I have a LOT of (poorly organized) books so I'm not going to search for them; you wouldn't have copies in your library anyway. But, if you actually want to confirm that I didn't make it up, just go to Youtube and put DINOSAUR + HUMAN TRACKS IN TEXAS in the search line.

[dtknowles]

I have a couple of books (with photos) for my "assertions" but I have a LOT of (poorly organized) books so I'm not going to search for them; you wouldn't have copies in your library anyway. But, if you actually want to confirm that I didn't make it up, just go to Youtube and put DINOSAUR + HUMAN TRACKS IN TEXAS in the search line.

If you believe that the Paluxy River tracks are evidence of Humans living in the time of dinosaur's I would move to exclude you from a jury if I was in court. The preponderance of evidence is those are not human tracks.

This quote from you is also not true. "The Big Bang may have happened but astronomers have well proven it's NOT the starting point of the universe as we know it." It is still a hypothesis that is being debated and in my Genesis time line I address both cases but I currently support the case that the Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe but have an open mind on the subject.


Tim

[Blackwater]

Even if it IS a human track, who's to say that it's impossible for the dinosaur track to have softened, maybe due to a thundering rain, and then a human came along and left HIS track over the already age-old dinosaur track???? God does indeed, I think, give us mysteries that we cannot solve. Perhaps it's just to keep us humble, and reverent???

[1hole]

Even if it IS a human track, who's to say that it's impossible for the dinosaur track to have softened, maybe due to a thundering rain, and then a human came along and left HIS track over the already age-old dinosaur track????

Black, the argument against that is the "experts" tell us the big lizards were extinct thousands of years before man arrived. But, if the original lizard tracks were laid that long before someone hobbled over them it seems the older muddy tracks would have been washed away long before any human got there. ???

It's interesting enough to be mentioned that since the discovery of those solid stone man-over-dinosoar tracks they have been repeatedly vandalized with hammers, presumably by "innerlecshul scientists" who don't want their cages rattled by physical evidence and dumm ol' Christians laughing. But, life can be hell for those who sneer at God!

As a side issue, most of our universe seems to extend from a central point in space and that was the foundation of the Big Bang. But, for the Bang to be true required:

(1) The universe must have been blown up and flying directly away from the site of the Bang in straight lines. Astronomers now know that whole galaxies are moving at right angle to most others!

(2) The rate of universe expansion had to be slowing down as the gravitational pull of all mass acting on the universe as a whole; instead, they found that the rate of expansion is still accelerating!

Therefore, the Big Bang delusion has turned brown and even the dummist of us knows that everything brown is not chocolate.

God is just so unfair to pompous scientists!