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Thread: Open Theism

  1. #21
    Boolit Master


    Ickisrulz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonp View Post
    But overall, God seems to work without exercising his unstoppable will on man...at least at this point. He works within the frame work of man's decisions and progress.

    Backwards it seems to me
    How so?

    Edit: I just noticed in post #18 you are a Calvinist. So I suppose my statement would seem backwards to you.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 12-15-2019 at 02:48 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I cannot create matter from nothing and I do not know my children's private thoughts or what they do every second of the day. However, I can predict with fair accuracy how they will react to certain things, what they will do this upcoming weekend, what they want for dinner, etc.

    To say that God knows all the past and all the present but yet can be surprised by anything man has done or will do doesn't make a bit of sense. Don't forget, God also knows everyone's inner thoughts.
    You hit the nail on the head.

    The biggest struggle for some people is accepting they cannot understand the level God operates on. I’ve come to accept that simply because I cannot wrap my head around the concept of omniscience does not mean God does not have it.

    I am a Wesleyan Arminian, so I do feel predestined salvation is not correct, per Calvin. So man does have a free will. In fact, it is the biggest curse, as well as blessing... However, that does not preclude God from knowing what will happen. He simply stays out of our decision-making and lets us come to our own choices. Sometimes He is happy for us and sometimes not, but he knew where we were going to go.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonp View Post
    It would seem to me that if God knows all then there can be nothing He can't know including any "undetermined future" from actions you might take. Logically, that doesn't make sense.

    ..... No one including God can know that.
    Oh, you place human limits on an all present, all knowing, all powerful God; take a look at the universe and say that again! I believe your god is much too small. (read Rom chap. 1, especially v. 19-20)

    My God is the God of the Bible. He is not limited like man; he is higher than man, his thoughts are not like man's and, unlike any mere man - including me - , he knew the end of history before the beginning of creation. My God can, has and does foretell the future with precision, he isn't sitting around heaven watching us to learn what we will do.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Oh, you place human limits on an all present, all knowing, all powerful God; take a look at the universe and say that again! I believe your god is much too small. (read Rom chap. 1, especially v. 19-20)

    My God is the God of the Bible. He is not limited like man; he is higher than man, his thoughts are not like man's and, unlike any mere man - including me - , he knew the end of history before the beginning of creation. My God can, has and does foretell the future with precision, he isn't sitting around heaven watching us to learn what we will do.
    No, I don't place human limits on God and that was my point. Maybe I didn't make that clear?
    I am become death. The destroyer of worlds

    We all do our duty when there is not cost to it, honor comes easier then. Sooner or later there comes a day in every man's life when it is not so easy, a day when he must choose and live with it for the rest of his days.

    The further society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMineA10mm View Post
    You hit the nail on the head.

    The biggest struggle for some people is accepting they cannot understand the level God operates on. Iíve come to accept that simply because I cannot wrap my head around the concept of omniscience does not mean God does not have it.

    I am a Wesleyan Arminian, so I do feel predestined salvation is not correct, per Calvin. So man does have a free will.
    Point of order: Predestination is Biblical, not because of Calvin but because it's scriptural. Calvin was simply the first theologian to pay attention to notice it.

    Until the early and mid 1,500s all institutional Church doctrine was Roman Catholic. They formally taught that salvation was ONLY through the RC Church and it's various rites, priests and Popes; Calvin showed the world the RCC was wrong and was the first to live to tell it. (Calvin's witness: Read the first chapter of nearly all New Testament books between Acts and Revelation and watch for "predestined", "elect", "chosen", etc.)

    Now, in anticipation of the usual fire storm of armenian protest, let me point out that recognising predestination is true does NOT negate man's absolutely necessary free will choice of following our Lord Jesus.
    Last edited by 1hole; 12-15-2019 at 06:23 PM.

  6. #26
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    Did God foresee that he would send the great flood? Doesn't God foresee many possible futures that God could create. Don't you believe that God answers prayers and acts upon the world in other ways.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Did God foresee that he would send the great flood? Doesn't God foresee many possible futures that God could create.
    Certainly.

    Don't you believe that God answers prayers and acts upon the world in other ways.
    Certainly.

    Now, you tell me; When did God know about and for what each of us would lift prayers and supplications? ???

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Certainly.



    Certainly.

    Now, you tell me; When did God know about and for what each of us would lift prayers and supplications? ???
    God might know of all our actions but it seems he does know the consequences of God's own actions why else would God have regrets.

    Genesis 6:6

    And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

    I don't think God knows about things God is not paying attention to. God is not dead God just does not care as much about Earth and humans anymore.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  9. #29
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    Tim, you're trying and that's good. But the hairs of our heads are numbered by God and no sparrow falls without his knowledge. Meaning NOTHING that happens anywhere at all escapes his notice.

    In our limited ability to grasp the magnitude of God, he has chosen to use words we can understand. His Bible uses words and expressions to show us he understands where we are and how we think. Thus we see that Jesus is "a solid rock, the rock of ages, a cornerstone, a lamb, a lion, the lily of the valley, living water", etc. None are literal expressions but all are true in the sense the writer intended but it's definitely not literal. That truth includes your reference to the expression of God's "regret".

    It may shock some people but Jesus and biblical characters didn't speak in 1611 King James English. A (smart) 5th grade kid can read scripture and see what it says in English but no such kid can grasp much of what it means.

    So, don't get too tied up in precisely what is written in every verse of scripture. Instead, put it all together and pray for spiritual guidance. Seek to understand what the words mean, i.e., what the real message is. That's not always child-like easy but stick with the point of the Biblical message as best you can. Avoid distracting and pointless red herrings and you'll do okay.
    Last edited by 1hole; 12-16-2019 at 01:24 PM.

  10. #30
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    To believe in open theism we would need to strike John 3:16 from the Bible. The verse says "whosoever believeth". That would be in conflict with open theism and Calviniem. I don't understand how whosoever can be limited to a predetermined group.
    I see our earthly lives as a boot camp. The Bible gives us some simple instructions on how we should prepare for the afterlife. If we can not abide by them why would God want to surround himself with doubters and objecters.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonp View Post
    It would seem to me that if God knows all then there can be nothing He can't know including any "undetermined future" from actions you might take. Logically, that doesn't make sense.

    God knows all truths but the qualifier "all truths that can be known" Open Theist's believe in negates an All Knowing God. So what exactly are you believing in? A God that is no better than you? Man as a supreme being that just lives in the moment with total free will unjudged for any actions because God knows no better than you what the future consequences for your actions are? You might as well be a secular progressive if that is the case in my opinion.

    I'm more of a Calvinist than anything at this point but Open Theism seems more of a belief system tailored to people that want no judgement of their actions because God knows no better than they do what the future is. If God doesn't know what the future is then there can be no downside to any current choices or beliefs as how can you say they are wrong? No one including God can know that.
    Your understanding of Open Theism is incorrect. This is skewing your judgement.

    But I am not here to convince anyone which religion is correct....the hundreds of sects within Christianity have failed to provide the "one correct religion"....so who knows? Open Theists are Christians even if they are feared (and misunderstood) by some other Christians.

    Regrettably, many Christians are influenced by "group think" from childhood or by whichever sect wherein they have found comfort. The danger is not that they are "wrong" but that they think they are "right" and somehow superior to other Christians. So far, God has been mute on which brand of Christianity is "correct". He will let us know if we get too far off course. I will trust Him and the Bible to guide me.

    BTW, this past Sunday our Pastor quoted a section of the Bible but told us it had not been translated properly. That always instantly raises a red flag for me. This happened in an Evangelical church that believes in the inerrancy of the Bible....so how could the translation be incorrect? But the sheep follow the shepherd....well, the vast majority of them.
    Don Verna

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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    BTW, this past Sunday our Pastor quoted a section of the Bible but told us it had not been translated properly. That always instantly raises a red flag for me. This happened in an Evangelical church that believes in the inerrancy of the Bible....so how could the translation be incorrect? But the sheep follow the shepherd....well, the vast majority of them.
    Most that hold that the Bible is without error only apply that distinction to the original manuscripts. There are known differences in manuscripts and known errors in English translations. So at times a teacher can say, "This verse would be better translated as..." and be correct.

    (Yes, there are people who believe the KJV is inspired. Why? I have no idea.)

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Most that hold that the Bible is without error only apply that distinction to the original manuscripts. There are known differences in manuscripts and known errors in English translations. So at times a teacher can say, "This verse would be better translated as..." and be correct.

    (Yes, there are people who believe the KJV is inspired. Why? I have no idea.)
    I enjoy your posts as I learn a great deal from them. What you say makes sense, but regrettably many people do not make the differentiation between the original texts and the translations. So we are left with the translated Word. I, for one, am not prepared to learn the ancient languages as it was bad enough I had to study Latin in high school.

    A quick search shows 450 English translations of the Bible. It is a stretch to believe each one is "divinely inspired", yet I suspect many think so. It can be a challenge as sometimes what seems like a minor tweak can have a major impact on the meaning of the Word.
    Last edited by dverna; 12-25-2019 at 07:32 AM.
    Don Verna

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  14. #34
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    We have a small percentage of believers who are quite sure the KJV is/was inspired, word for word; they are wrong but it's a harmless error. Neither King James nor the Lord nor any of his disciples spoke in Middle English. Thing about that is words change meaning over time; if we have no revisions to follow the changes the message becomes impossible to properly understand.

    I know of no one who claims any other than the KJV translation is inspired.

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