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Thread: Opinions on Original vs Modern Reproduction Lever guns?

  1. #101
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy45 View Post
    Great picture!
    Thanks I just took a picture for someone else because they asked what I made from leather. In the picture is just a few things

  2. #102
    this is like having a blow up wife or a real human/warm wife...………...it ain't the same no matter how hard you trying to fool yourself....would you trade your original 1886 Winchester for a Mirookoo copy with the OSHA safety
    and fool yourself into thinking you have a cheap copy of the real thing...…..naw it will never be anything but a copy...………………………..

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by winchester 71 View Post
    this is like having a blow up wife or a real human/warm wife...………...it ain't the same no matter how hard you trying to fool yourself....would you trade your original 1886 Winchester for a Mirookoo copy with the OSHA safety
    and fool yourself into thinking you have a cheap copy of the real thing...…..naw it will never be anything but a copy...………………………..
    And so what that it's a copy? Some copies are better than original, some are equal and some are inferior however they do the same thing. Short of collecting function is what matters. Your example of a wife verse a blow up doll would be valid if we were talking about a Nerf gun verse a real firearm.

    OSHA has zero say in firearms design other than regulating safety in the work place.

    The real question is how does it being a copy effect it's function? When I shoot SASS my Uberti 1873 rifle is a far better choice than my original 1873 Winchester rifle. I don't own an original 1873 Colt but I do have a bunch of clones that are better choice for that application.

    Without the copies and clones very few people could afford originals. That would eliminate various shooting competitions like BPCR, SASS and a bunch of others.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 02-14-2020 at 10:55 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  4. #104
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    What did osha do in japan , nothing , it is a sue crazed society that had the corporate office add a safety , and my uberti 1886 or the 1873 rifles do not have any tang or push safety , and the 1873 uberti and pietta 1873 pistols with the push cylinder pin in deeper are easily fixed .

    I like the uberti , pretty , wood and blue or case color , functions , was affordable , was not worn out , better metal , at the cost of an original not all can afford them , even the modern made ones are not cheap and some bemoan the fact of people using ar15 instead of lever actions , well cost does matter and so does caliber cost to shoot , enjoy whatever suits your desires , heck I have a ex brother in law with a 1886 rifle 45-70 excellent condition , but that one will not sell cheap , it was shot yes but it was well cared for , yes I would like it but not at the price it will go for .

  5. #105
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    I was going to comment but decided it wouldn't change anyone's mind. I'm satisfied(and I'm sure I'll be condemned for that) with my Browning Miroku Model 71, Browning Miroku Model 95 in .30-40, Browning B92 .44 Mag and Rossi Model 92 .357. Yes, I wish as modern manufactured arms they had used different twist barrels but it is what it is.
    John
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by winchester 71 View Post
    this is like having a blow up wife or a real human/warm wife...………...it ain't the same no matter how hard you trying to fool yourself....would you trade your original 1886 Winchester for a Mirookoo copy with the OSHA safety
    and fool yourself into thinking you have a cheap copy of the real thing...…..naw it will never be anything but a copy...………………………..
    So he bought a copy ...................what are guns for ? I thought for shooting with, not for hanging on the wall to brag over

    the copy is better quality steel, more accurate barrel, some of em more attractive externally than the originals were,

    If you have a shootable original and use it as such you have a firearm that is inferior in almost every way to the best of the copies.

    If you are a collector and have high value collectables - what do you have? you got the leftover one that some wannabee a hundred years ago bought with spare cash and hid in a closet - the well used old ones are all wore out, rusted out or blown up.

    Except for the lawyer safety stuff the copies all honour the original design and function but vastly superior mettalurgy - I dont see where the problem is .

  7. #107
    Boolit Master trails4u's Avatar
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    "If you have a shootable original and use it as such you have a firearm that is inferior in almost every way to the best of the copies.

    If you are a collector and have high value collectables - what do you have? you got the leftover one that some wannabee a hundred years ago bought with spare cash and hid in a closet - the well used old ones are all wore out, rusted out or blown up."

    I don't know why I'd even wade into this......I guess it's past my bedtime. But...for some of us, history matters. I'll stop there...anything else I'm thinking of adding isn't nice, but I will say your perspective of originals is clearly coming from someone who hasn't/doesn't own nor shoot an original.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #108
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    Yes history matters to some of us. That is why I DO NOT use originals for things like SASS competition. Why take a piece of history wear it out? I have at least a dozen firearms manufactured between 1860 and 1920. I do my best to preserve them as a piece of history. Yes I do shoot them and if the weather is nice they may get used for hunting. They do not nor will they ever see rough weather or rough usage like I subject the modern copies too.

    The metallurgy in most pre-1920 firearms is inferior to even the junkiest modern copies. My first Winchester 1897 was manufactured in 1903. It was rough on the outside but it had not been shot much so I cut it down for SASS. It didn't last long with that type of usage. Even the cheapest Chinese clone would have outlasted the original 20 times over.

    Same for BPCR. If I could find an original that was accurate enough and configured properly to be competitive the cost would be at least 10 fold more and service life would be less.

    Early barrels weren't the greatest and they tend to be soft so jacketed bullets are hard on them.

    Both originals and clones have their place. They both have their strengths and weakness.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 02-16-2020 at 06:12 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by trails4u View Post
    "If you have a shootable original and use it as such you have a firearm that is inferior in almost every way to the best of the copies.

    If you are a collector and have high value collectables - what do you have? you got the leftover one that some wannabee a hundred years ago bought with spare cash and hid in a closet - the well used old ones are all wore out, rusted out or blown up."

    I don't know why I'd even wade into this......I guess it's past my bedtime. But...for some of us, history matters. I'll stop there...anything else I'm thinking of adding isn't nice, but I will say your perspective of originals is clearly coming from someone who hasn't/doesn't own nor shoot an original.
    I thought it was fair return for the blow up doll comment
    just so ya know we have an original 73 clunker we rebarreled plus 3 model 92's that are shot regular, one a good enough plinker as is, the other two rebarreled - one of em I build into a 38/40 from a 25/20 frame - had an early Rossi 92 and several other 92's that have moved on - I have the three bigframe open top winchesters (71,76,86) in quality shootable copies - for about what it would cost for a mediocre condition shootable 86 - that would be a bad trade in my opinion - you choose different thats fine - no call to put rubbish on the blokes that choose to shoot quality modern made replicas like mr 71 did.

    As far as the collectors go I stick by my comment, the best of em (mint condition and high grade pieces) are guns that never got used for their intended purpose. Soulless things that dont have an honest story of work - some feller with too much loot wants to pay half a million for one of those ? good luck to him - but he wont shoot it so whats the point ?

  10. #110
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    I guess im the only one that uses everything equally. I really couldnt care less. I bought it, so its going out. My only modern levergun is a marlin 1894, that I paid 700$ for. But I really wanted a .44 mag at the time... for some reason? I couldnt care less about it. I plant it in the snow and use it like its meant to be. I just dont have a "connection" to it as all my originals.
    Not to mention I use my originals the same. Except il clean, lube dry, and take alot better care of them.

    My 1886 is well worth 3000$, I got multiple offers on it. I use it every weekend. Rain, snow -40... I dont care.
    I paid my 1873 3000$... Fully nickel plated. Use it just the same. Keep in mind it needs to be dried as soon as I get inside.

    To me, these are very expensive. I know some of you pay hundreds of thousands for rifles, but I can't sadly.

    I 100% DO NOT AGREE with the lesser quality Originals. The only thing il say is that the metal is of lesser quality, compared to todays. Absolutely no issues using factory loads which are plenty to kill anything in north america. I dont need 2800 fps on a 400 grain boolit. I know people love those though...

    All my votes are on originals, I can't see how its possible to use them up... I can't imagine shooting out a barrel and mine was made in 1889. Its an easy care process, smokeless or BP. Iv'e shot thousands of loads just in my '86.

    P.S: Fun little argument/ clash of opinions here. Keep it going

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    I guess im the only one that uses everything equally. I really couldnt care less. I bought it, so its going out. My only modern levergun is a marlin 1894, that I paid 700$ for. But I really wanted a .44 mag at the time... for some reason? I couldnt care less about it. I plant it in the snow and use it like its meant to be. I just dont have a "connection" to it as all my originals.
    Not to mention I use my originals the same. Except il clean, lube dry, and take alot better care of them.

    My 1886 is well worth 3000$, I got multiple offers on it. I use it every weekend. Rain, snow -40... I dont care.
    I paid my 1873 3000$... Fully nickel plated. Use it just the same. Keep in mind it needs to be dried as soon as I get inside.

    To me, these are very expensive. I know some of you pay hundreds of thousands for rifles, but I can't sadly.

    I 100% DO NOT AGREE with the lesser quality Originals. The only thing il say is that the metal is of lesser quality, compared to todays. Absolutely no issues using factory loads which are plenty to kill anything in north america. I dont need 2800 fps on a 400 grain boolit. I know people love those though...

    All my votes are on originals, I can't see how its possible to use them up... I can't imagine shooting out a barrel and mine was made in 1889. Its an easy care process, smokeless or BP. Iv'e shot thousands of loads just in my '86.

    P.S: Fun little argument/ clash of opinions here. Keep it going
    Kev
    My snarky remarks were aimed at the blow up doll bloke and I made sure to quote his bit in my reply - somebody else got offended (this not directed at you) - too bad - read the thing properly and get over it .

    now about burnt out barrels I agree - cant imagine shooting out a barrel using lead boolits and cleaning the thing properly - I have two explanations that both dont include cleaning it properly - I think those old barrels got rotted out, either from not cleaning after shooting blackpowder rounds (the gun got put aside and forgot to clean it) either that or corrosive priming - that was a big deal even up until my early days with some ammo - I have had several 92's and a couple of 73's obviously been used hard, actions still ok, but barrel stuffed - these were mostly picked up from outback properties where they were a tool. The first lever gun I got I bought with my first pay packet when I was still 15 yrs old - a mate of mine had inherited it off an uncle, old uncle loved that little carbine, it was wore out, must have been cycled a million times, ridiculous headspace, but the barrel shot great - I think he cleaned it properly.

    I agree with you on using them too - what use is a gun that you cant or dont shoot? Mine all get looked after as well as I can do it no favourites and no safe queens.

    I saw a decent shootable 86 in our LGS maybe six years ago, they got $4500 for it, three years later in the same shop I got an almost new Chiappa (bit of a project gun but I dont mind that - actually liked it) paid $1850 - that was a stretch of the budget - the original was an unjustifiable price - and by the time I got the Chiappa the original was more likely $7k. I dont invest in guns with the idea of resale - when I get one I want it comes home and stays home

  12. #112
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Kev
    My snarky remarks were aimed at the blow up doll bloke and I made sure to quote his bit in my reply - somebody else got offended (this not directed at you) - too bad - read the thing properly and get over it .

    now about burnt out barrels I agree - cant imagine shooting out a barrel using lead boolits and cleaning the thing properly - I have two explanations that both dont include cleaning it properly - I think those old barrels got rotted out, either from not cleaning after shooting blackpowder rounds (the gun got put aside and forgot to clean it) either that or corrosive priming - that was a big deal even up until my early days with some ammo - I have had several 92's and a couple of 73's obviously been used hard, actions still ok, but barrel stuffed - these were mostly picked up from outback properties where they were a tool. The first lever gun I got I bought with my first pay packet when I was still 15 yrs old - a mate of mine had inherited it off an uncle, old uncle loved that little carbine, it was wore out, must have been cycled a million times, ridiculous headspace, but the barrel shot great - I think he cleaned it properly.

    I agree with you on using them too - what use is a gun that you cant or dont shoot? Mine all get looked after as well as I can do it no favourites and no safe queens.

    I saw a decent shootable 86 in our LGS maybe six years ago, they got $4500 for it, three years later in the same shop I got an almost new Chiappa (bit of a project gun but I dont mind that - actually liked it) paid $1850 - that was a stretch of the budget - the original was an unjustifiable price - and by the time I got the Chiappa the original was more likely $7k. I dont invest in guns with the idea of resale - when I get one I want it comes home and stays home
    I dont intend on resale either. I love them all equally. Hopefully the day never comes that I would NEED to sell them.
    Was the chiappa abit expensive? I dont know anything about repros, but around here, you can get a really good shape original for 2000$.

  13. #113
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    I prefer used originals over nicer finished moderns. Currently my exceptions to this is a urberti Burgess in 45 colt that I use for cowboy action and a H&R officers model trapdoor 45-70. I may trade the burgess if I get an original that I will shoot, that may be a long stretch. But 20k for an original officers model Springfield isn’t going to happen.

  14. #114
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    Buy what You want new or old and shoot All You can while Your Upright...... A Friend of mine passed a few years ago He had been collecting Savage 99's and Winchester 88's for forty years had a few odd ball things like original Win 1895 src and a bunch of revolvers. He had around fifty original rifles,most He never shot. At His estate sale the gun buyers looked like a bunch of Vultures on a kill. It was sad. He didn't take even one with Him.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    I dont intend on resale either. I love them all equally. Hopefully the day never comes that I would NEED to sell them.
    Was the chiappa abit expensive? I dont know anything about repros, but around here, you can get a really good shape original for 2000$.
    Kev I was quoting aussie dollar - currently converting at 1AU$= 0.67U$ so no I dont think the Chiappa was overpriced - it had fired six rounds and was unmarked - retail at the time was $2350 (I think)

    except for feral water buffalo in the far tropical north there was no animal on this continent tough enough to need anything the size of the big winchesters so we dont see them as originals -- plenty of 92's and 73's were common enough but an original 76 or 86 ? extremely rare downunder

    there were a good number of 450/577 martinis and the 577 snider - both military issue

    I would have bought a good shape original for 2K at the time but they easily bring twice or three times that ----shootable model 92's are still relatively inexpensive - most that we see are 32/20 so the Cowboy action thing never blew the price of those out too much and we also are banned from shipping these to the US which helps keep a lid on prices.

  16. #116
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    All I have are a couple Rossi's, a 94 Winchester 30-30, a Henry 22, and a cheap Chinese copy of a 1887 lever shotgun.
    Nothing fancy or valuable but they are mine and I like them.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmacgyver0 View Post
    All I have are a couple Rossi's, a 94 Winchester 30-30, a Henry 22, and a cheap Chinese copy of a 1887 lever shotgun.
    Nothing fancy or valuable but they are mine and I like them.
    And that is what it is all about and you are creating your own history with them.

    I have a couple of originals that have some documented actual "history" but that "history" is from people I didn't know and events I didn't participate in. Dollar wise they have significant value and I limit the type and amount of shooting they receive to preserve both the history and monetary value but they really mean very little to me. Now my Dad's plain Jane Model 12, Remington 721 and High Standard HD Military have far more importance to me than any other firearm I own.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 02-16-2020 at 07:21 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  18. #118
    Boolit Master trails4u's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    I thought it was fair return for the blow up doll comment
    just so ya know we have an original 73 clunker we rebarreled plus 3 model 92's that are shot regular, one a good enough plinker as is, the other two rebarreled - one of em I build into a 38/40 from a 25/20 frame - had an early Rossi 92 and several other 92's that have moved on - I have the three bigframe open top winchesters (71,76,86) in quality shootable copies - for about what it would cost for a mediocre condition shootable 86 - that would be a bad trade in my opinion - you choose different thats fine - no call to put rubbish on the blokes that choose to shoot quality modern made replicas like mr 71 did.

    As far as the collectors go I stick by my comment, the best of em (mint condition and high grade pieces) are guns that never got used for their intended purpose. Soulless things that dont have an honest story of work - some feller with too much loot wants to pay half a million for one of those ? good luck to him - but he wont shoot it so whats the point ?
    I'm with you on the collector variety safe queens. Won't do it. I shoot everything I own....even some that would make some folks squirm a little bit. I treat them well....but won't 'shelter' them.. They deserve to live their life as intended.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by trails4u View Post
    I'm with you on the collector variety safe queens. Won't do it. I shoot everything I own....even some that would make some folks squirm a little bit. I treat them well....but won't 'shelter' them.. They deserve to live their life as intended.
    Imagine spending thousands on something and not using it... I cant do it. Alot of people do this with cars. They will work all there life to afford a dream car. Once bought, they wont use it. One can argue that its their property so they can do what they wish, which is 100% true but I found that those people are the ones that care most about resale value, which is a shame. People can't fully enjoy what they have because they always think about the money.

  20. #120
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    If I own it, it is a shooter pure and simple.
    1886 original from 96, Navy Armsor Numrich (forget which) produced Remington Rolling Block and a new last week Marlin 1895.

    They see only lead projies one and all.

    My Contender (16") pistol sees only 300 grain HPs at 1565 fps.

    I have a 303 Martini and Rem Rolling Block action that I have had for a while with the intent of making a "Sporter weight 45-70", but guess I will just sell them now with the addition of my 1895 for a lightweight gun.
    Last edited by TCLouis; 02-16-2020 at 11:19 PM. Reason: Added information
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