WidenersInline FabricationRotoMetals2Titan Reloading
ADvertise hereRepackboxLee Precision

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 57

Thread: Cast VS jacketed for dangerous game

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master
    white eagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    718 miles E. of Wall Drug
    Posts
    5,148
    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    I'm puzzled you have deer go 100 yards with lung shots. I've killed a lot of deer and elk with cast, and have never had one go even half that distance.
    As for cast vs. jacketed, I'm #5 on the food chain here, and trust cast more than jacketed.
    well quite frankly I'm puzzled by your response
    might be your Montana deer die more easily
    I will never say I know every action and reaction an animal makes
    when shot with a bullet any kind of bullet
    never underestimate the animals flee and survival reaction
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    NE Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,230
    Veral Smith has an excellent book on cast bullets. I highly suggest if you have not read it to buy it and read it. WFN hard cast bullets driven hard will do tremendous damage. The stretch cavity is impressive and effective. Nose design is important and speed is important if you do not have diameter from a large caliber. Example 458 WFN bullet that meplat is .800 of caliber is wide and will displace tissue faster they driven the more displaced tissue. Expanding 30 caliber is about the same diameter as the 458 WFN as cast. Think about that. Get Verals book it’s real good read.

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy 444ttd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    164
    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    I'm puzzled you have deer go 100 yards with lung shots. I've killed a lot of deer and elk with cast, and have never had one go even half that distance.
    As for cast vs. jacketed, I'm #5 on the food chain here, and trust cast more than jacketed.
    i have, for jacketed bullets. i was using my 243win and 85gr barnes x bullet(it failed miserably) and i shot a doe that was about 30-40 yards away. she ran and i followed her for about 200+ yards until she gave up the ghost. it was a mere pin pick threw her lungs and i didn't have a blood trail, luckily it snowed that day. i did every conceivable bullet(sierra, hornady, speer, nosler....) in the 243 and every deer ran about 100 yards. i gave up on the 243 (about 25+ years ago) and i went elsewhere.

    my son shot a doe at 20+/- yards and she ran about 125 yards. it was shot back in the lungs and it was a 7x57 with a 139gr hornady fn going around 2600fps.

    using a jacketed bullet has some risks(not opening up, blowing up...), but i now use cast boolits. its either dead right there or the deer goes about 25-50 yards after the shot.
    "The religion of KE: proposed by the ignorant, and parroted by the unknowing" - MikeG

    ​“Einstein's relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  4. #24
    Moderator Emeritus


    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    SW Montana
    Posts
    10,600
    For dangerous game solids have proven themselves in Africa for over a century. That translates to a ductile alloy that retains shape and weight. it is not hard cast which can fracture and shed particles as it moves.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Soda Springs, Idaho
    Posts
    926
    The original poster first mentioned shooting a couple of deer with hard cast bullets & not being real happy with the out come & then mentions dangerous game & ask what the out come might be. Here we are talking about 2 different bullets when it comes to cast, you can't use one bullet for both, well you can't but the results won't be the same.

    With big caliber revolvers that big flat nose does the killing if the placement is correct & you have some velocity behind it, you don't need Mach IV. Deer are easy to kill if you have good placement & you will almost always get complete penetration, at least I do most of the time even with HP's. The last 5-6 years I've used a lot of HP's on deer & 3 antelope in revolvers, I've recovered 3 I think.

    Now when we move up to elk, moose or bears we might want a tougher bullet or a bigger caliber, something like the 480 that I used on my bull moose in a Ruger SRH at 45 yds, one shot, complete penetration. The one bear you will see in the photo's was taken with my 10.5" 44 magnum at about 75-80 yds I think, complete pass through on both lungs, bear tumbled about 20 yds down the hill & was dead, dead! Bullet was a 250 gr Keith solid & 21 grs of 2400.

    Again, match you alloy to your speed, I say this over & over, put it in the right place & you'll eat backstraps. Many times I've broken both front shoulders of large elk & gotten an exit, I've never recovered a bullet on 12 elk.

    The first photo a guy sent me from Texas using one of my 213 gr 41 HP's & 8 grs of Unique. Bullet broke the right front shoulder, cut the heart in half & was lodged under the skin on the far side, went 20 yds, expanded to .760".

    Second deer was taken with the same 41 HP bullet in Missouri at 125 yds, large doe, double lung shot & she ran about 30 yds & down. He also took another one at 65 yds with the same results.

    There are a couple of bullets I did recover in the photo's after going almost lengthways through the animal & one of them was a 44 HP.












    Dick

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    NE Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,230
    Well Put Dick proof is right there. I have taken more deer than I care to mention and 18 elk two with a WFN 44 magnum. Shot placement was key took out the pump in both cases they can cover some ground in 30 seconds it takes to bleed out. Again as the game gets larger so should the caliber I carry. I have a 460 S&W the 360 grain WFN from that revolver will go lengthwise through an elk and wreck everything in between. DRT central nervous system that’s it. Again if you shoot cast buy Verals Smiths book it’s a great read about cast bullet performance. Not end be all but another great resource for learning.
    Last edited by Ramjet-SS; 12-09-2019 at 09:10 AM.

  7. #27
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer


    waksupi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Somers, Montana, a quaint little drinking village,with a severe hunting and fishing problem.
    Posts
    17,677
    Quote Originally Posted by 444ttd View Post
    i have, for jacketed bullets. i was using my 243win and 85gr barnes x bullet(it failed miserably) and i shot a doe that was about 30-40 yards away. she ran and i followed her for about 200+ yards until she gave up the ghost. it was a mere pin pick threw her lungs and i didn't have a blood trail, luckily it snowed that day. i did every conceivable bullet(sierra, hornady, speer, nosler....) in the 243 and every deer ran about 100 yards. i gave up on the 243 (about 25+ years ago) and i went elsewhere.

    my son shot a doe at 20+/- yards and she ran about 125 yards. it was shot back in the lungs and it was a 7x57 with a 139gr hornady fn going around 2600fps.

    using a jacketed bullet has some risks(not opening up, blowing up...), but i now use cast boolits. its either dead right there or the deer goes about 25-50 yards after the shot.
    Most jacketed bullets cause too much internal destruction to kill quickly.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  8. #28
    Boolit Master
    Markopolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Remote island in SE Alaska
    Posts
    1,346
    well, i would say its hard to measure hard cast efficiently against something like a deer... hard cast on dangerous game like large bears is warrented... the bones, the muscle, the overall mass is sooooo much different then even your basic huge mule deer.. comparing apples and oranges I say, but what do I know? .. the right tool for the Job Trip...
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

    I will love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    NW OH Oak Openings Area
    Posts
    603
    Every time I think I know what a animal will do when hit in a proper place with a bullet or arrow I find that even great shots are not always down quickly. I have had 2 deer drop on the spot when shot thru the heart with a broadhead while others even small deer with their heart blown in half with a 12 ga. slug, muzzeloader , or rifle and go 60 yards or more.


    Jedman

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    2,799
    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    Most jacketed bullets cause too much internal destruction to kill quickly.
    IMO and experience i’ve had the opposite effect and that’s what DRTs animals. A fragile bullet that explodes inside the animal and takes it off its feet. I’ve shot over 9 dozen coyotes with 70 grain ballistic tips out of a 243 and several deer with 180 grain ballistic tip out of a 30-06 to see fragile bullets that literally explode and shatter inside an animal and slamming them to the ground. They just make a mess.

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy

    Prodigal Son's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    242
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_2422.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	69.3 KB 
ID:	252647
    Lyman #2 alloy 200 gr GC in the shoulder out passed the last rib! No blood trail until 15 yards from the doe. Clean pass through all vitals luckily I was able to watch it crash! Broke no bones!
    Semper Fidelis, to God, Country and Corps!

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy 444ttd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    164
    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    Most jacketed bullets cause too much internal destruction to kill quickly.

    this has been "my" experience.

    i used to use my ruger #1 in 270 and 130gr nosler bt with imr4320 going about 2900fps and it killed deer. while going 100 yards and under, the bt was like a grenade. it would go into the deer, either shoulder or behind the shoulder shot, and it was like lung soup with chunks of heart. there was no exit or going into the exit lung cavity, but there was a whole lot of blood shot meat on the entry.. the bt was shredded. the jacket and the lead you could never find. a never find would be a blood trail, but the deer would go 20-40 yards after the shot. it was a big reason why i don't shoot jacketed bullets anymore.

    now, while going over 100 yards(to 365+/- yards), the bt goes into a deer, expands and comes out. its just as good as any bullet there is. i don't have any complaints about the bt WHEN it goes over 100 yards.

    it all has to with the speed of bullet. hitting a deer at 2800+ fps the bt becomes a grenade. while under 2800 fps(i like to go 2700-2750fps) hitting a deer, the bt acts like a bullets should. i have used the bt in 270 and 6.5 creedmoor going about 2700-2750fps and under 100 yards it is an entry, expands and goes out of deer. i haven't shot a bt(or a bullet) for about 7 or so years, what can i say, i luv my cast boolits. although the deer don't like them either!!!!
    "The religion of KE: proposed by the ignorant, and parroted by the unknowing" - MikeG

    ​“Einstein's relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #33
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    2,799
    Quote Originally Posted by Prodigal Son View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_2422.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	69.3 KB 
ID:	252647
    Lyman #2 alloy 200 gr GC in the shoulder out passed the last rib! No blood trail until 15 yards from the doe. Clean pass through all vitals luckily I was able to watch it crash! Broke no bones!

    A 141 Remington is on my bucket list! I shot two with its grandson this year...a limited edition 7600 carbine in 35 Rem I loaded with 180 grain hot Cores. One dear I had a little far back and win a good 40 yard stood for a second and fell over. I blew half the front of the liver up and just grace the heart and lungs. The second one which was a nice eight pointer I shot quartering away through the last couple ribs and it exited between the front shoulders in the neck area. It took a good three steps and fell over. I lost zero meat from both deer except for the liver and the doe. I had the bullet loaded at 2350 FPS. First time ever shooting deer with a 35 Rem for me. I Was pretty tickled. Next year I’ll try our group buy 200 grain HP GC boolit through both it and with my 35 Whelen. For Whitetail deer which is completely opposite of what this post is about. In my opinion I would go as soft as possible after my experience so it opens up and expands to a ridiculous diameter for good blood trails if needed and maximum kinetic energy’s transfer. I’m hoping to find out this Thursday through Sunday if one crosses my path during anterless only season.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-09-2019 at 01:19 PM.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    17,791
    Bullet performance on smaller soft skinned animals is not a good indicator of neither bullet performance nor what is wanted with larger, heavier muscled and boned "dangerous game" such as bears on this continent. For the 44 magnum in your rifle (the same will certainly suffice in a handgun) a GC'd SWC or WFN of 260 - 280 gr cast of Lyman #2 alloy and WQ'd or HT'd loaded of a safe max load of H110/296 is what I would use. At 1700 +/- fps that alloy has the ductile strength to not shatter and should give maximum penetration which is what you want for a head on confrontation.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master
    white eagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    718 miles E. of Wall Drug
    Posts
    5,148
    agreed deer just aint bears or lions or tigers
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  16. #36
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    2,799
    Quote Originally Posted by white eagle View Post
    agreed deer just aint bears or lions or tigers
    ...oh my!

    I couldn’t resist


    So the general consensus is a hard boolit for brain busting... and don’t miss!

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    2,216
    I keep seeing reference to energy transfer, energy dump, slamming them to the ground ect. One would think that if energy was all that then a 300 gr at 2200fps that totally disintegrated in the chest cavity(3200 ftlb by the calculator) should have a 50% more significant effect on the deer than a 130 at 2800fps(2250 ftlb). Well, I can tell you that there was no more effect at the shot than if I had shot him with a 22. Nope, not so much as to collapse. Took the shot, he Doug in and sprinted 60 yards towards the woods. No heart, unless you count the bottom 2 inches, and no lungs not anything in there but red soup. If you expect to stop an animal NOW that bullet better find bones for locomotion and/or cns. Best be sure that bullet stays on course and doesn’t get stopped by anything. Disrupting destroying internal organs is deadly, but it takes a while. 30 seconds, how much damage can a really poed bear do to a human in that time, I don’t intend to find out. My vote is a big, ductile solid with a flat nose, make mine 12 gage.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
    dk17hmr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    2,145
    I have had jacketed bullets come apart in the head of animals purposefully shot in the head and not reach the brain. Switching to an all copper bullets the bullet usually goes zinging across the desert after blowing through the skull.

    In a charging animal situation I don't think an inexperienced person is going to be making a head shot. Mostly likely it'll be yanking the trigger when the barrel is pointing at fur deeper penetration has greater potential of breaking bones, be it shoulders, femurs, hips, whatever is in the path.
    Doug
    .................................................. ........................................
    Sticks and stones may break my bones but hollow points expand on impact.

    Taxidermists are cheaper than surgeons....keep shooting

    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Some people measure success in Minutes of Angle

  19. #39
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    3,946
    I wish some guides would frequent this forum. They hunt for a living and it would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the question.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Soda Springs, Idaho
    Posts
    926
    If they did I'm guessing none would be using a handgun as backup & probably none would be using cast in their rifles. Most likely a 338 with premium ammo or bigger if it was serious big game, could be wrong. Also I doubt most of them have time to cast.
    One of the best guides in all of Alaska did kill a large Brown Bear a couple of years ago that was attacking his fishing clients using a 9mm & Buffalo Bore cast slugs. Shooting it in the head from the SIDE! It didn't know he was there.

    Dick

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check