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Thread: Cast VS jacketed for dangerous game

  1. #41
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    From what I read I think most guides use 375 H&H’s along with 300 grain nosler partitions. I just think it be a pain in the butt to be toting my 375 ultra mag around but if it saved my life or someone else’s its worth its weight in gold.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-09-2019 at 07:23 PM.

  2. #42
    Boolit Mold
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    FWIW, I was a licensed guide here, not any more though, and I carry a short barrelled .338wm.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by CoryT View Post
    FWIW, I was a licensed guide here, not any more though, and I carry a short barrelled .338wm.
    What bullet did you use?
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  4. #44
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’m thinking my little 35 Whelen Remington 7600 carbine pump with an 18 1/2 inch barrel and a 250 grain Nosler partition loaded to max would probably be a good little guide carry gun. Just dreaming, it’s going to be a long time before I get to do something like that. I’m Just about as fast with my pumps as my semi automatics.

  5. #45
    Boolit Mold
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    I used Nosler Partitions in both 210 and 225gr. in the .338.

  6. #46
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    white eagle's Avatar
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    I think a short barreled 12 ga loaded with cast slugs
    would do the trick or a Marlin GG in 45-70
    in either I want 100% cast say rite around #2 alloy to start
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  7. #47
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by white eagle View Post
    I think a short barreled 12 ga loaded with cast slugs
    would do the trick or a Marlin GG in 45-70
    in either I want 100% cast say rite around #2 alloy to start
    As a close range defence or thick cover tracking, yes. I once tracked a wounded black bear in black swamp spruce so thick visibility was less than 3 feet. That jumps your pucker factor!
    The reason for the .338 is that most times you are backing up a poorly placed initial shot, with still the tracking yet to come.

  8. #48
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    as I have stated before, I use the Lee 310's in my 44.. its all I shoot from my bear protection revolver and they are Hard Cast. being ported, it stays on target better and the loads are full house h110 or 2400... i know there are bigger cal handguns around, but the 44 handles easily, and is easier to carry, easier to pratice with, and I have been carrying that gun for 6 months out of the year for 20 years... as a guide in protection of clients and otherwise... i imagine shooting a deer with that load would blow right through a deer without slowing down. a bear I would expect to find a boolit, if I survived... most folks just dont realize how big bears get....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    the bear in the background is a sow, weighing around 700lbs... the Boar in the foreground was twice that.. and buff!! look at the muscle group in the forleg and shoulder..even with the thick fur, you can see clear definition of muscle .. lots different then a deer. the shoulder alone is the width of a large deer, and a lot more muscle and bone... no comparison to a deer.... size of a Volkswagen with a lot more mass...

    marko
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

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  9. #49
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Markopolo View Post
    as I have stated before, I use the Lee 310's in my 44.. its all I shoot from my bear protection revolver and they are Hard Cast. being ported, it stays on target better and the loads are full house h110 or 2400... i know there are bigger cal handguns around, but the 44 handles easily, and is easier to carry, easier to pratice with, and I have been carrying that gun for 6 months out of the year for 20 years... as a guide in protection of clients and otherwise... i imagine shooting a deer with that load would blow right through a deer without slowing down. a bear I would expect to find a boolit, if I survived... most folks just dont realize how big bears get....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    the bear in the background is a sow, weighing around 700lbs... the Boar in the foreground was twice that.. and buff!! look at the muscle group in the forleg and shoulder..even with the thick fur, you can see clear definition of muscle .. lots different then a deer. the shoulder alone is the width of a large deer, and a lot more muscle and bone... no comparison to a deer.... size of a Volkswagen with a lot more mass...

    marko
    Good post.

    I saw a full mount of a Grizzly my deceased friend shot (think he used a .375 H&H). Anyone who hunts one with a pistol is nuts. I can see using a .44 or bigger as a back up but not as the primary weapon. And they say a 9mm isn’t enough gun to take out a man.....

    BTW, a 1000 lb bear is huge. I admire anyone with the guts to get close enough to shoot one with a pistol and make the shot. Still think they are nuts....
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  10. #50
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’d give my left you know what to try and put my 375 RUM through a brown bear! I have a box of 260 grain Nosler partition’s sitting in my reloading room just waiting for my dream day. I do have a 300 RUM as well and I’ve seen a few of those on video rollin brown bears. It’s been on my bucket list since I’ve been able to walk. I just know unless I move to Alaska and be a resident for a few years it’s probably never gonna happen because I know I’d never be able to justify spending that kind of money on a guide. I think I’m gonna go to the junkyard and try and shoot through some Volkswagens.lol


    Years ago when I went with guys that ran dogs for blackbear I watched 13 bear get shot with anything from 12 gauge slugs to 30-06’s. All fell out of the tree dropped and ran after the shot and or shots except for my 300 RUM and my buddies 300 RUM. My buddy shot his with 180 grain ballistic tip and it was a very small bear. Fell from the tree and never got up. It had blood shooting out of it like a garden hose while it was kicking around a little. I dropped mine out of the tree stone cold dead. Mine wasn’t that big either as it was about 250 pounds. I hit it with a 180 grain swift sirocco factory loaded. Hit it in the chest and went out the shoulder on the other side. Whatever happened reminded me of when you shoot a fox and it blows holes in the fur or zips open the skin. There was a slit halfway down underneath the Bears leg going all the way up past its armpit like I started to skin it. I learned that year that overkill on a black bear helps put it down where it stands. I did shoot one seven years later with a 200 grain Nosler partition broadside that didn’t drop it where it stood. I double lunged it and took out the heart. The bear did a somersault got up and went to good 40 to 45 yards and let out a good seven or eight curdling death roars before expiring. That bear was about 350 pounds and 7 foot two.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-10-2019 at 05:42 PM.

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy
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    100 yd run is nothing thats about 10 seconds of life left before dropping

  12. #52
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    When I lived in AK, I used a .338WM Winchester model 70. It had enough behind it for hunting what I was hunting. But when it came to something hunting me,
    I had my Ruger Super BH and a Super RH in.44mag with 320gr hard cast developed by the guy that ran the gun shop downtown Fairbanks. That was my last ditch
    backup for grizzly bear and black bear in the woods. I trusted it with my life. Sure hurt my wrist to shoot though.
    Kelly W
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  13. #53
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    I met a taxidermist who explained he had a heck of a time with a mount. The hunter thought he would 'shoot him between the eyes' with his S&W 44 Mag. The jacketed bullet split the hide and the skull split the bullet. Lucky hunter had the bear stand up rather than charge. He place 5 more rounds in the throat area trying to hit the spine. He missed but the bear choked and died on the blood. Taxidermist had to do some patching on a CA black bear, hardly a grizzly.

    I had a friend who took his black bear in one shot with his 30-30 as his 41 mag was in the shop. Heart and spine hit with one shot.

    I read an article with a series of pictures taken in rapid fashion. F&W Officers were relocating a grizzly using a truck with the bear trap in the back of the truck. The plan was for the driver to take off as soon as the bear exited the truck. The grizzly had other ideas. Trap door was opened, the bear exited, the driver did not take off. The bear spun around and pulled the trap out of the truck with the F&W Officer still on top of the trap. The bear got the lower leg of the officer who promptly emptied his .357 Mag into the bear. F&W Officer need a few stitches, bear needed an undertaker.

    Many lessons here:
    1) Bring enough gun in the first place. 2) A treed bear makes shot placement (he aimed for the spine) easier with a 30-30. 3) Jacketed bullets do not make for good head shots as a bear's cranium is apparently pretty thick. 4) Tie the damn trap down to the truck. 5) If all you have is the weapon issued, make it count. 6) If the bear has you by the leg the CNS shot might present itself but I'm thinking no amount of training is going to prepare you for that so keep firing. 7) Mostly, don't become 'Hatchet Jack' from Jeremiah Johnson.
    Common sense Gun Safety . . .

    Is taught at the Range!

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fcvan View Post
    I met a taxidermist who explained he had a heck of a time with a mount. The hunter thought he would 'shoot him between the eyes' with his S&W 44 Mag. The jacketed bullet split the hide and the skull split the bullet. Lucky hunter had the bear stand up rather than charge. He place 5 more rounds in the throat area trying to hit the spine. He missed but the bear choked and died on the blood. Taxidermist had to do some patching on a CA black bear, hardly a grizzly.

    I had a friend who took his black bear in one shot with his 30-30 as his 41 mag was in the shop. Heart and spine hit with one shot.

    I read an article with a series of pictures taken in rapid fashion. F&W Officers were relocating a grizzly using a truck with the bear trap in the back of the truck. The plan was for the driver to take off as soon as the bear exited the truck. The grizzly had other ideas. Trap door was opened, the bear exited, the driver did not take off. The bear spun around and pulled the trap out of the truck with the F&W Officer still on top of the trap. The bear got the lower leg of the officer who promptly emptied his .357 Mag into the bear. F&W Officer need a few stitches, bear needed an undertaker.

    Many lessons here:
    1) Bring enough gun in the first place. 2) A treed bear makes shot placement (he aimed for the spine) easier with a 30-30. 3) Jacketed bullets do not make for good head shots as a bear's cranium is apparently pretty thick. 4) Tie the damn trap down to the truck. 5) If all you have is the weapon issued, make it count. 6) If the bear has you by the leg the CNS shot might present itself but I'm thinking no amount of training is going to prepare you for that so keep firing. 7) Mostly, don't become 'Hatchet Jack' from Jeremiah Johnson.
    That was Louis Kis, used to be the head F&G guy in this area.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    waksupi, thanks for the background info. I had saved that story and related pictures on a computer that died, hard drive became corrupted. Anyway, thank you again sir. Frank
    Common sense Gun Safety . . .

    Is taught at the Range!

  16. #56
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    Eye opening occurrence

    Never had the opportunity to shoot anything larger than deer/ hogs but I saw something I would not have believed could happen. While hunting deer with a 7 rem mag using a 175 gr. Pointed soft point Core Loct (sp?) I called in and shot an average size coyote. Now the location was heavily wooded and I was curious about the bullet and very quickly found the jacket embedded in the side of a small tree. The Remington hunting bullet had shed itís jacket while penetrating a coyote! About 35 grains of jacket material was all I could find. I have never looked a jacketed bullets the same, and I have hunted with cast boolits (except for pdawgs) since then.
    There are only two kinds of men:

    1. Those who know Jesus Christ is both Creator and Sovereign Lord.

    2. Those about to learn that Jesus Christ is both Creator and Sovereign Lord.

  17. #57
    Boolit Buddy
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    When I was taking wildlife courses at Michigan Tech they had a grizzly skull in their collection. It had a .30 caliber jacketed bullet embedded in the bone just above and between the eyes. It also had a bullet hole in the right side of the brain case and a significant part of the left side of the brain case missing. I can't say the weight or manufacturer of the bullet that was imbedded in the bone. I can say it was .30 caliber and it was a flat base. Sadly, no one in the Wildlife Department knew the story of the bear.

    I have three guns that will accompany me on my trips to Alaska- a Ruger SRH in .480 with a 400gr cast LFN (current load runs at 1050fps), an 1895M in .450 Marlin with a 420gr. LFN (1800fps), and a Sako M995 in .375 H&H with 270gr. Barnes TSXs (2690fps). The .375 will be for hunting where the distance could be significant. The others are for when I'm just trying not to get eaten.

    I figure if the bullet doesn't make it to the vitals (like the bullet in the bear skull), it won't get the job done. Lastly, after seeing .22LR bullets deflect off beaver skulls while doing damage control, I've learned when they are facing me dead on- aim for the nose. The bones at the back of the sinuses are a lot thinner and the base of the brain is right behind them.

    Good discussion!

    John

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check