Cleaning brass before annealing

[15meter]

In the past I have polished brass bright with walnut media and commercial brass polish added. Always liked the look of the brass before and after annealing. 8-10 months ago I started with a new batch of walnut media and have only added NuFinish auto polish.

Brass comes out bright shiny and polished smooth. I liked the look and the feel of the brass, at least until I annealed a batch or two. The necks got a nasty tarnished, stained look I did not like. I think it was the NuFinish residual film on the case burning. I don't think it hurt the cases except for appearances.

Yesterday I polished a batch of brass with new walnut media, no additives of any kind. Cleaned nicely, not as bright "mirror" like surface finish, closer to matte. Annealed this batch, 150 30-40 Krag, virtually no tarnished/stained/burned on look on the necks.

After annealing they went into the walnut media/NuFinish for ~2 hours came out high luster brass that I was looking for.

Anybody else notice excessive tarnishing on the necks when they are annealing?

And what did you do about it? Or is this just a OCD thing?

[lightman]

I think that what you are seeing is that you are burning the protective coating. It doesn't hurt anything except the looks. And your feelings!

[country gent]

The nu finish does leave a light coating behind on the brass to slow oxidation. This coating may be causing the discoloration. I anneal with a lead pot full off sand and had starline brass that turned pinkish shade when annealed that way. It is annealed and good just a slightly different color. I clean in corn cob media with iosso polish and nu finish. Walnut hulls have a natural oil in them that may also have an effect if it hasn't been dried out enough.

[15meter]

What I saw was more ugly burned/scorched brown/black. Not the normal change in color from annealing.

I don't believe I'm over heating the cases, I anneal in just enough light to be able to find the cases to pick them up and quench as soon as I see a faint glow. Faint enough that if the lights were on, you'd never see the glow.

[ioon44]

The last batch of .308 I annealed came out scorched brown but it loaded and shot with out any problems. I was using two propane torches opposite of each other but that should not have mattered.

[15meter]

The last batch of .308 I annealed came out scorched brown but it loaded and shot with out any problems. I was using two propane torches opposite of each other but that should not have mattered.

I use two torches also set to the lowest flame just before they go out. Slower heat seams to anneal better, more controllable.

Biggest thing I did to get more consistent annealing was to turn off the big lights in the shop. I work with just enough light so it is tough to grab the cases with a pliers to hold them in the flame.

But now final polish before annealing will be with new media so I eliminate the burned on staining of the neck.

[country gent]

The original theory behind the high temp flames was to heat the neck shoulder before the head got to hot and then quench to stop travel. Some would stand cases up in water to protect the heads also. While the brass is thin the lower temp longer time gives a more even heating. Heating holding in pliers , socket or tube the holders act as heat sinks adding mass and slowing travel of the heat into the head.

[15meter]

I use pliers more to keep my fingers as far from the flame as I can, I really, really like my fingers just the way they are.

Don't think I'd like them BBQ'ed

[georgerkahn]

15meter: I'm an OCD annealer, mainly because I shoot calibers not having readily available brass to reload. Thus, from the annealing, I get many more reloads than same brass sans annealing. I primarily -- when case length permits -- use a Girraud brand annealer; for shorter cases, I use an automotive socket to hold the case -- mostly 3/8" drive -- with a nut and bolt through the socket bottom; bolt chucked in a variable speed Ryobi 18V electric drill; using a Bernz-o-matic torch (VERY low flame!) for heat, before angling socket holding case down to enable it being dropped into a large water-filled coffee can.
Almost all cleaning I do is using s.s. pins in water, with a bit of Dawn and Lem'n Shine. From annealing, one can see a change in colour of the brass. Recently (a couple of years?) I stopped using the Dawn, replacing it with Armor All Wash n Wax -- this, purportedly to leave a microscopic wax coating on the brass to attenuate oxidation of it. I do not know if the wax in NuFinish is different (?) than that in the Armor All product. However -- I do not discern any (colour) difference in MY brass annealed after each.
Might you post photos of your brass -- maybe a couple of each type cleaned? Also, you did not specify HOW you anneal... might you share what you do? One last comment is I have noted different brass -- e.g., military vs commercial; different brands; different vintage -- ends with different post-anneal colouring. Most stark for me is old (WWII or before) vintage .30-'06 military brass. Perhaps this may be the colouring in your US .30 (.30-40 Krag) brass?
geo

[lightman]

Back during the shortages of 2007-2008 I bought an annealing machine. I guess everyones QC slipped some during that time from just trying to keep up with demand. I was having new Winchester brass get neck splits on the first firing. This led to annealing other cases. It seemed like I got a better job if the brass was clean. It certainly was easier to see the color changes. I saved some of those cases with split necks to use in adjusting my machine.

[Wayne Smith]

Country Gent, if you read this please clean out your PM's.

[country gent]

Mr. Smth cleaned them up sorry for the inconvenience

[15meter]

QUOTE=georgerkahn;4775820]15meter: I'm an OCD annealer, mainly because I shoot calibers not having readily available brass to reload. Thus, from the annealing, I get many more reloads than same brass sans annealing. I primarily -- when case length permits -- use a Girraud brand annealer; for shorter cases, I use an automotive socket to hold the case -- mostly 3/8" drive -- with a nut and bolt through the socket bottom; bolt chucked in a variable speed Ryobi 18V electric drill; using a Bernz-o-matic torch (VERY low flame!) for heat, before angling socket holding case down to enable it being dropped into a large water-filled coffee can.
Almost all cleaning I do is using s.s. pins in water, with a bit of Dawn and Lem'n Shine. From annealing, one can see a change in colour of the brass. Recently (a couple of years?) I stopped using the Dawn, replacing it with Armor All Wash n Wax -- this, purportedly to leave a microscopic wax coating on the brass to attenuate oxidation of it. I do not know if the wax in NuFinish is different (?) than that in the Armor All product. However -- I do not discern any (colour) difference in MY brass annealed after each.
Might you post photos of your brass -- maybe a couple of each type cleaned? Also, you did not specify HOW you anneal... might you share what you do? One last comment is I have noted different brass -- e.g., military vs commercial; different brands; different vintage -- ends with different post-anneal colouring. Most stark for me is old (WWII or before) vintage .30-'06 military brass. Perhaps this may be the colouring in your US .30 (.30-40 Krag) brass?
geo[/QUOTE]


Hi George, the following is a cut and past from post #6, it's pretty easy to breeze by "stuff" when you are skimming these posts, I've done it more times that I can count with even with my shoes off.

Quote Originally Posted by ioon44 View Post:

"The last batch of .308 I annealed came out scorched brown but it loaded and shot with out any problems. I was using two propane torches opposite of each other but that should not have mattered."

My response:
I use two torches also set to the lowest flame just before they go out. Slower heat seams to anneal better, more controllable.

Biggest thing I did to get more consistent annealing was to turn off the big lights in the shop. I work with just enough light so it is tough to grab the cases with a pliers to hold them in the flame.

But now final polish before annealing will be with new media so I eliminate the burned on staining of the neck.

New stuff:
By annealing in semi-darkness I can see the color change much faster than in bright light. With the two torches I start with the case in the flame horizontally, when I start to see a color change, I roll my wrist so the top is now on the bottom usually it only takes a second or two after rolling over for a nice, even, very faint color change. I have a quart can of water right in front of me, when they are "done" they get dunked straight into the water for several seconds. Then back into the wooden case holders I made.

By just dunking and giving them a good shake to get rid of excess water they are almost dry. I always anneal after sundown so I can control the amount of light. Because I use dry media, when I'm done annealing the cases go back into the polisher for a final spiff-up before loading. The polisher is on a timer and when I come back in the next morning the brass is ready to load. Best part of this I don't have to listen to the racket of the polisher while I'm in the shop.

On your comment about old brass, most of this is commercial brass, and it didn't appear on this brass because I gave it a final polish with unadulterated new media before annealing.

I've had this tarnish/stain on other brass since I started using NuFinish as a polishing agent.

I'll have to see if I can find some of the ugly brass to photograph.

It really is just an appearance issue, they load and shoot just fine. It's just in the past I've had compliments on my anneal job on other cases in that it looked as good as commercial annealing.

With the brass listed below, I've played a fair amount with annealing, some of this brass is expensive or a pain to reform from a different case. I don't want to lose any because of brittle necks.

And I'm like you, I reload a whole bunch of either obsolete or very expensive cases, my list:

I have loaded the following cartridges:
.204 Ruger 22 Hornet 221 Fireball
.222 Remington 220 Swift 22-250
.223 .243 .257 Roberts
260 Remington 6.5x54 6.5x55
6.5 Carcano 6.5x53R 7x57 Mauser
275 Rigby 30 carbine 30-06
30 Remington 30-30 30-40 Krag 300 Savage
300 H&H 375 H&H
.308 Win .303 British 7.62x39
7.62x54r 32 win spec 8x60s
8x57 Mauser 8x50r 8x56r
318 Westley Richards .338 Win Mag 35 Rem
350 Rigby Magnum 38-55 .375 Flanged 2 1/2" Nitro Express
9.3x74R 400/350 Nitro Express 416 Rigby
450/400 NE 450 Nitro Express 45/70
450 Bushmaster 470 Nitro Express 50/70

Pistol:
45 acp 38 special .357 mag
380/200 44 special 44 mag
45 Colt .45 Schofield 7.62 Nagant
41 Magnum 480 Ruger. 40 S&W

Shotgun:
12, 16, 20, 28, 410