Breakthrough! No leading or buildup!

[jmac2112]

Most of my posts to these forums have been questions about how to solve a problem, but this time I've got a positive contribution to make. Those of you who are more experienced than I am will probably yawn through this, but it may be of interest to others.

I recently switched from casting and powder coating my own boolits to using the store-bought coated type. My CZ Shadow 2 barrel slugs at .3565, and I had been using .3585 PC boolits with good success. I tried several different profiles and diameters (.356, .357, .358) from several manufacturers, but I kept having issues with leading, or at least a significant buildup of some sort of crud. I had always had something of a buildup issue with my PC boolits, but I had learned to live with the scrubbing that it took to remove the stuff. I found that I had pretty much the same issue with Blue Bullets, but it was still a lot better than the major leading I was getting with the other coated bullets I tried. It didn't seem to be lead, and it occurred only near the rear of the barrel, but I often had to break out the Chore Boy to scrub it out. I kept working with the Blue Bullets to see if I could eliminate the problem, but no dice.

Anyway, to make a long story short(er), I discovered that the NOE case expander plug that I was using had worn down really badly, so that the tip was about .003" smaller than it should be. It hadn't occurred to me to check this, since I just didn't expect it to happen. I had pulled several Blue Bullets and had not found any significant swaging problems (maybe a couple ten-thousandths under the .358" diameter), but I did notice that some of the coating stuck to the inside of the cases. There was no lead showing through the coating on the bullet, but clearly the coating was being compromised to some degree.

In the end, here's what I ended up with:

Bullet: Blue Bullets 147 grain flat point
Diameter: .356
Expander: Lyman M, 38 Special (.3555 diameter)
OAL: 1.125
Powder: 3.2 grains Sport Pistol
Amount of leading: none
Accuracy: excellent (4" groups at 20 yards, which is as good as I can do with any ammo)

I was surprised that I was able to use .356 diameter bullets, but there you go. I was also kind of surprised that the .3555 diameter expander provided enough tension to pass the "pressing into the bench" test, but it did. When I pulled the bullets to check, I not only found that there was absolutely no swaging, but that there was no coating rubbing off on the inside of the cases.

I tried some .358 diameter bullets as well, using a .3575 diameter NOE expander plug. These also worked well, but there was a slight amount of buildup in the barrel that took some scrubbing to remove. I also had to load them shorter (1.100). Given how well the .356 diameter bullets performed, and the total lack of leading or other buildup, I see no advantage to using .358 bullets.

I might try some other bullets as well (i.e. Hi-Tek coated) in the future. I'll bet that they will end up working just as well now that I've got the loading process sorted out.

So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

[jmac2112]

P.S. I think the upshot is:

1) Make sure your expander plug is not worn out.

2) You might not need as big a bullet/boolit diameter as you think, at least with some coatings.

3) You might not need as much case tension as you think. Assuming .001 springback, I've now got about .0015 difference between bullet diameter and case ID, and it seems to work just fine.

4) In any case, you might want to check to make sure that none of the coating is being left behind inside the case when you pull a bullet.

[Petander]

Congrats,I hear you. Feels good,right?

Expanders are a little overlooked topic. I still see pliers being recommended to flare cases "because it worked for my grandpa"...

Correct expander / bullet combination makes for happy ammo. A worn out expander sounds surprising... those NOE:s can be a little rough,I lightly dip my 45-70 case mouths in graphite before expanding.

I also agree it's worth experimenting with neck tension. NOE is great, I have .457, .458 and .459 plugs for cast 45-70, for example.

[jmac2112]

Thanks, Petander! Yeah, I was surprised that there was ANY wear on the NOE expander, but there it is. I used that expander for I don't know how many thousands of rounds, but still.

They are very handy, but the pistol caliber versions are a little short for loading long bullets like 147 gr, and the rifle plugs skip from .351 to .357 diameter. That's why I ended up using a Lyman M 38 Special expander that I had lying around. It measures .3555, and it's pretty long. Too bad Lyman makes only a handful of sizes.

Now I've got a bunch of .358 Blue Bullets (about 1500 of them) that I need to size down.... Oh well, I'm just glad I've got the problem sorted out.

[Petander]

Lyman is solid and nice to use,yes.

I use the same 7341801 for some 357. I also ordered a "Lyman 38 S&W" -expander from Brownells, thinking it would be larger but no, it's the same exact expander as 357 magnum. Lee has these differently with their powder through expanders.

No big deal,my bad,it says everything clearly in the box. The new one is .356 though, old is .3555.

[Forrest r]

Odd that the neo expander wore down.

Don't know if it makes any difference but some 9mm brass is brass coated steel cases. Might be worth it to run a magnet over your brass to see is it picks any of the up.
[IMG][/IMG]

I made my own 9mm expander out of mild 1040 steel, only expanded +/- 10,000 cases with it so far using .358" bullets. But it has not wore down any/still the same dimensions.
[IMG][/IMG]

Perhaps you could call NEO and let them know what happened to their expander plug. I'm sure they would want to know.

[jmac2112]

Forrest r: I run a magnet through my brass, and I've seen the sort of cases you're talking about. I might miss one every now and then, but I don't think it would cause a problem like this. I hesitate to contact NOE about it, though, because whatever the cause is, I'm pretty sure it's my fault.

Nice work on the homemade expander! Did you do that because your powder through die wasn't going deep enough? Or does the factory die just flare the case mouth?

[Phlier]

Lyman is solid and nice to use,yes.

I use the same 7341801 for some 357. I also ordered a "Lyman 38 S&W" -expander from Brownells, thinking it would be larger but no, it's the same exact expander as 357 magnum. Lee has these differently with their powder through expanders.

I have the Lee 38 S&W expander, and while it is the same diameter as a 38 Special/357 Magnum expander, it is much longer, allowing you to expand the 9mm case deeper. I use it on the 550 or the LCT when loading 9mm on those presses, and an NOE .360/.356 expander on the 1050.

I sure wish we could talk Al at NOE into making powder through expander dies.

[Petander]

I have the Lee 38 S&W expander, and while it is the same diameter as a 38 Special/357 Magnum expander, it is much longer, allowing you to expand the 9mm case deeper.

Is it only longer? I'm using it in 9mm ,too. But I never measured it!

It is in a Lee 1000 right now,don't want to take it out and check.

[Phlier]

Is it only longer? I'm using it in 9mm ,too. But I never measured it!

It is in a Lee 1000 right now,don't want to take it out and check.

Now you have me second guessing myself.... I've measured the diameter of so many expanders, it's definitely possible I'm not remembering correctly.

I'm gonna go measure them and get back to you on this...

[Dragonheart]

I own a number of 9mm handguns from different manufacturers and one of the first things I do is slug the barrel. I size my 9mm PC bullets .356" as I have found no reason to oversize a bullet once the bullet diameter will fully engage the rifling and provide a gas seal. My limited Ransom Rest testing shows accuracy does not improve with oversized bullets in fact with identical loads and the only change is the diameter of the bullet, groups are larger.

[baragasam]

I too ran into issues with shaving lead/PC from bullets when seating bullets with a Lee bullet seat and taper crimp die combo. Seating slow also helps and making sure the crimping isn't too deep.

[onelight]

I own a number of 9mm handguns from different manufacturers and one of the first things I do is slug the barrel. I size my 9mm PC bullets .356" as I have found no reason to oversize a bullet once the bullet diameter will fully engage the rifling and provide a gas seal. My limited Ransom Rest testing shows accuracy does not improve with oversized bullets in fact with identical loads and the only change is the diameter of the bullet, groups are larger.

.356 is what I shoot in 7 different 9s with hi-tek coated no leading in any.

[cwlongshot]

Have you bore scoped that barrel?

Im thinking something is at work here to cause this leading. I mean Im using pc cast almost exclusively now. I have shot 10’s of thousands of various colors and manufacturers of powders from 9-1400 fps in my 40’s in competition. Thru factory and multiple after market pistol & rifle barrels and HONESTLY NEVER EVER SEEN ANY fouling!!

I assumed maybe your methods might be the issue. But now with commercial bullets you have same. Only constants are your loading and same barrel.

Have you shot pc’d bullets thru different firearms and also gotten leading/ fouling?

CW