Magazine chain fire test

[Photog]

So I wanted to find out if my handloaded lead round nose boolits could induce a "chainfire" in my Win M94 30-30.
So why not try to induce a primer fire in a controlled test?

What I did: Primed a 30-30 case. Put this primed case in a cartridge gauge, in a vise so the primer is up, the cartridge mouth is free to the floor being held securely in place in the "chamber" of a case gauge.

Seated a 179g Lee round nose boolit, from the loading bin. Not sure the exact percentage, but cast them with about 5% Antimony (rotometals superhard dunked in the pot) and a chunk of lead/tin 50/50 solder. These give me great accuracy if not driven too fast. They are not real soft, they do have a rounded nose, and you can't gouge them with your fingernail with out really trying. Not the hardest that I have cast, not dead soft, somewhere in-between. Seated the boolit into an unprimed case. Applied Lee Factory Crimp. Hard. Harder than I would normally go, and yes I do use the FCD for cast boolits. (just beagle your molds, don"t undersize them boolits and get them to *just* fit the chamber - your chambers are probably bigger than you think)

Holding the tip of the boolit to the primer of the inverted case, used a ball peen 8oz hammer to bash the crap out of the unprimed-but-seated-and-crimped and hope to hear a bang (wear hearing pro, and let your wife know that the loud noise is coming - primers are louder than it would seem).




Nothing. The crimped boolit made a small dent in the live primer, but receded back into the case before it would detonate the bugger. Getting nothing could also be said of the hammer alone.

Your milage may vary, but I feel fine loading these into the M94, knowing that these Federal Primers (chosen because of supposed sensitivity) won't pop under recoil, and since I usually use CCI or Winchester primers, I built in a little extra safety.

[JimB..]

Nice test. Thanks for sharing the results!

[stubshaft]

I have never seen a verified case of a primer being set off in a tubular magazine by a spitzer type bullet. Personally I think that it is a perceived safety issue. However, I still load roundnose or flat point lead in my lever actions.

[Texas by God]

Round nose bullets have never been the concern. Lots of RN factory 25-35, 30-30 and such have been used for years with no problems. Try it with a spitzer; you'll get the bang you are seeking.

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[MT Gianni]

I saw a 92 at a gunsmiths that had gone off in the magazine tube. The suspicion was that the tube was sloppy enough that a swc on angle hit the primer. 2 rounds went off and there were 7 in the tube. It can happen. Doug Wells shop in 2004.

[ReloaderFred]

I've seen it first hand in a Model 73 Winchester, and I've seen pictures of a Model 94 Winchester that was destroyed by a magazine detonation.

[M-Tecs]

My dad's hunting buddy had a couple go off in the magazine on a Winchester Model 71. That was in the 60's and I was only 7 or 8 years old at the time but remember looking at the results with my dad.

[Photog]

I've seen it first hand in a Model 73 Winchester, and I've seen pictures of a Model 94 Winchester that was destroyed by a magazine detonation.

These incidents are troubling. They seem to happen, yet there is difficulty reproducing them. It would be great to know about the Win73 incident. What load/primer/bullet? 1873's have been around forever and all manner of configurations and calibers have been made. Which rounds (placement) in the magazine went off? Was there any analysis done by the factory/gunsmith?

[Photog]

And one huge caveat to anything posted by folks on the interwebs: my test was a sample size of 1, which is statistically meaningless for the masses.

Detonations DO occur. They happen when loading and unloading, during reloading operations, even in transport (thats why Federal has the sardine style primer trays).

If someone has some real analysis form a real testing lab, please share!
My questions would be:
Are there particular primers (brand, make, model) that are more prone to detonations?
Are there powder/primer combinations that are more prone to detonations?
Can primer age be a factor?
Can cartridge, caliber, boolit weight, mag tube size, etc be a factor?
Can ambient temperature be a factor?
does this happen with handloads more than commercial loads?

[robg]

handloader did a test years back all it shows is it can happen but its rare .im a coward so round or flat nose for me.anything that can go wrong will!

[DougGuy]

Had your primer detonated, without the flash hole drilled out pretty big specifically for a test like this, it could have exited the primer pocket in any random upward direction at a high velocity. Enough to shatter a pair of glasses, enough to cause a serious injury to an eye if it ricochet off the cheek and got under the safety glasses. Primers are dangerous when detonated outside their intended use, which would be confined by a chambered case and a breech face.

[Good Cheer]

Heard tell that tube magazine Henry's and #454190 are a no-no.

[longbow]

I was planning to do just such a test as the first time I read about magazine chain fire I was more than a little surprised... not having experienced it or seen it before and the fact that tube magazine guns have been around for a very long time.

Add to that I was at the time feeding max. loads through a Marlin 1895 .45-70 using round nose boolits (Lyman 457124). I shot thousands of rounds loaded to the max. with never a hitch.

Not saying it can't happen but per Photog's comments... under what circumstances? If it didn't happen with hot loaded .45-70, there isn't a much heavier recoiling rifle with tube magazine I don't think (using handloads). Not in factory chambering anyway.

My shooting was with round nose not spire point boolits and I can agree that a spire point boolit may have a better chance of setting off a primer... if the boolit is very hard cast alloy and centered on the primer. Even straight cases like .45-70 and 444 Marlin tilt in the magazine due to case taper and rim so boolit being centered on a primer is not likely anyway.

If factory ammunition was prone to primer detonation in tube magazines, even very occasionally, then especially in this litigious society I would expect firearms company lawyers to demand a stop to tube magazine firearm production. If a magazine exploded and a shooter or bystander was injured and the problem was linked to the tube magazine being at fault the gun manufacturer would be sued for sure. It would be a crippling lawsuit for the company.

In the same line, Paco Kelly sells or used to sell a hollow pointing tool for .22 rimfire and it is a simple die you insert a loaded round into then drive a punch down on it with a hammer to hollow point the bullet. I have not heard any issues with those and if the priming compound detonated that is a loaded round effectively in a chamber.

So, I'd like to know more about the details of magazine detonation/chainfire accidents that have happened to be convinced it is something that is a real concern. If these were all reloads that says something and likely the reloader is part of it ~ high primer? poorly seated primer? If a mix of reloads and factory loads then I'd be a little more concerned.

Like I said, not saying it can't happen but a little more info would be nice before drawing conclusion.

Longbow

[Photog]

Had your primer detonated, without the flash hole drilled out pretty big specifically for a test like this, it could have exited the primer pocket in any random upward direction at a high velocity. Enough to shatter a pair of glasses, enough to cause a serious injury to an eye if it ricochet off the cheek and got under the safety glasses. Primers are dangerous when detonated outside their intended use, which would be confined by a chambered case and a breech face.

I'm having a hard time with this assessment. Not "saying it ain't so", as that is one giant fallacy in our hobby, but I have serious doubts. If the primer detonated while being struck by the boolit point being struck by a hammer, the primer, with very little mass, would have to jump from the primer pocket, lift the boolit (with its momentum being reversed), and lift the hammer (with its momentum being reversed). Thats a lot of mass to move from a primer detonation, and a lot of friction to overcome from the pocket. Without the contained pressure from a closed cartridge, and yes a small flash hole (but that flash hole is open to the atmosphere), where is the pressure coming from?

[Texas by God]

The primer on a .50BMG case put blood blisters on my friends hand and went through a 1/2" drywall ceiling when he was "killing" the primer with a punch and hammer. Yes, it moved the punch, hammer, and his hand in an instant. Lots of power in even a small primer; don't play with them. That's dumb.

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[M-Tecs]

Good read and actual examples here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ine-explosions

Got this from Beartooth:

"Buffalo Bore went to a small rifle primer, seated deeper than normal, when some customers managed to have ammo go off in the magazine tubes. With the Marlins, it's apparently possible for a hard cast bullet with just the right meplat to get a bit cocked in the mag tube, and put the edge of the bullet nose on the primer of the cartridge ahead of it.

Email BB if you have questions, Tim was very upfront about this...."

we do have a thread from the past
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Tube-dentation
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...tube+explosion
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...tube+explosion

[LAH]

Remember Jim Taylor trying to set a primer off with some bullets I supplied him. He couldn't make it happen.

[50target]

The primer on a .50BMG case put blood blisters on my friends hand and went through a 1/2" drywall ceiling when he was "killing" the primer with a punch and hammer. Yes, it moved the punch, hammer, and his hand in an instant. Lots of power in even a small primer; don't play with them. That's dumb.

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Worked in a gun store when I was younger and while cleaning up one night found a 50 BMG round that someone had pulled the bullet and powder. Asked the manager what I should do and he said he would "deactivate" the primer & make it safe. Put it in a bench vise and used a hammer and punch. Now memory fails me as to the position of the case mouth, if it was against anything or not. He said it would make a noise and pressure would go out case mouth. Well.......not exactly. When he strict the primer, that case came out of the vice and took out two light fixtures in the ceiling along with other minor damage. Caused quite a ruckus. Taught me the power of a primer
Took a while to shake off "one of the 2 idiots who"

[john.k]

If you read the US army s tests of guns ,they had several tube magazine explosions ,...........admittedly with early design cartridges.

[fatelk]

I don't mess around with popping uncontained primers, as they do have some bang to them. A friend of my grandfather once pulled apart a 12 gauge round many years ago, and for some reason set the primed hull on a fence and shot it with a BB gun. He then had to go to the hospital to have the primer surgically removed from his arm.

So, not to downplay the hazards of primers, BUT a .50 BMG primer is a whole order of magnitude bigger than a 30-30 primer. It's a BIG primer with a whole lot of bang!