Cast boolits in a sabot?

[megasupermagnum]

Since you already cast 44 caliber Lyman Devastator's, I don't know why you wouldn't try those.

[rodwha]

Since season starts tomorrow I’m just going to shoot the shockwaves since the last time I load tested them they shot a .3” group at 100 yards. I will head to the range tomorrow to check to see if my scope is on and hit the woods. I’ll try casting some pure 44 cal Lyman devastators up next year and try them. I’ve never lost a deer yet with the 300 grain shock waves so if it’s not broke don’t fix it.

But it is a bit broken, no? It’s not performing the way it should leaving you to want to try others.

[Tripplebeards]

I just got back into town at about 2 o’clock today and it’s about a half an hour to my land. Well I either could’ve ran my butt off took a quick shower in scent shield and grabbed all my gear and went and sat... But I never checked my optic to see if it’s still on. I also needed gas and had a low tire. I figured I’d owed it to myself and the deer to take the afternoon off and head to the range. I remember the last time I checked my zero which was about 4 to 5 years ago it was 2 inches high at 100 yards with my 300 grain shock waves. I squeezed the first 100 yard shot off and called it done with the shockwaves...



At least I’m better safe than sorry and I know now that if I miss it’s me.

Here is the first three shot group I ever shot with this load at a 100 yards and this is repeatable all day long as long as I do my part...




I did borrow a couple of my shockwave’s sabots and tried a three shot group at 100 yards without adjusting my optic. It shot a 2 1/4 inch group. It’s definitely minute of deer with the load and right on without adjusting. If it was at least an inch and a half or less I would hunt with it. Even though my deer always run 50 to 60 yards after the shot on average I know my deer is dead every time when I pull the trigger with the shockwave


Here’s my cast group...

[rodwha]

A wide meplat penetrates well and creates plenty of hole no matter what. But if you can’t find something to group well you just can’t, though I think I’d take 3” at 100 yds with a WFN vs 0.25” with little trauma if <150 yds is all I’d be possibly do.

What kind of internal damage are you seeing?

[megasupermagnum]

Knowing you are capable of great accuracy, I would keep trying. My accuracy load in my TC impact, scoped with a Leupold 1-4x, is 90 grains Blackhorn 209, T/C brand 44 caliber (green) sabot, and a SSK 320 grain bullet sized .430". I no longer hunt with that gun, but I did take it out to shoot to loan it out this year. It is consistent at 1 1/4" at 100 yards under no wind conditions, which as good as I ever got anything to shoot in it. That includes a number of store bought sabot/bullet's, like the SST, shockwave, etc. The shockwave is ridiculously hard to load in most guns, and doesn't shoot well in mine. The SST is decent, right in there with my cast bullet. The Hornady FPB shot quite well, however, they do not perform well on deer.

The most surprising thing to me was how flat my cast bullets shoot. At 90 grains Blackhorn, I believe they were around 1700 fps from the gun. Sighted 1.5" high at 100 yards is less than 3" low at 150, and around 10"-12" low at 200. I was able to get 4" groups at 200 yards with mine. Only one deer was ever shot with this load, and with a pure lead bullet. I didn't shoot it, but was told it was trotting, and face planted at the shot. The shot was taken at about 20 yards.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised with a soft cast bullet in a sabot once you find one that shoots great. Personally I think it is the perfect opportunity to pick a solid bullet cast very soft. Expansion is impressive at these velocities without a hollow point, maybe more so since they tend to flatten out like a rivet, rather than bend over and mushroom into a ball.

Don't discount a bore size bullet like the offerings from No-Excuses either. From what I hear, they are the go-to for long range hunters out west.

[Tripplebeards]

What kind of internal damage are you seeing?

To be honest I don’t really remember. If I remember right it tears the deer up pretty good inside. Every deer I’ve shot makes it a good 45 to 60 yards after the shot except for when I back bone them. All the deer that I’ve traveled I’ve been broadside heart and lung shots even with breaking a leg on the way in on one Which was done on purpose to see if I could drop it in the on the spot. It’s been a few years since I’ve nailed one with the muzzle loader as I’m always trying to trophy hunt. Normally on the last day of muzzleloader season I’ll take whatever walks by the last 15 minutes and that’s how I’ve shot most these deer as Id rather fill my tag with something and have meat in the freezer than eat my tag. I did check on my Nikon BDC program and it said 2 inches high at 100 yards will put me dead center at about 140. So I would assume my muzzleloader at 2 inches high at 100 yards I should be able to aim directly dead on a deer out to 160 yards or a little farther which is as far or farther than I probably have a shot in my woods.


You think a bullet like this traveling at 450 bushmaster velocities would put deer in the ground where they stand most the time. The 300 grain shockwave has just got to be too hard of a bullet is the only thing I can figure out. I guess I just need to treat it like a hard cast boolit that doesn’t expand and aim for shoulders and backbones if I want to drop them where they stand.


The Shockwave triple seven combo I’m using imo is a pet load in most TC muzzleloaders. I tried to two of my buddies TC Encores and one omega and all shot Sub MOA.

[rodwha]

There’s just no way a pointy non-expanding bullet does the same damage a WFN will do at a similar velocity. The deer might not drop right there but I’d bet you might cut their running distance down.

[megasupermagnum]

There’s just no way a pointy non-expanding bullet does the same damage a WFN will do at a similar velocity. The deer might not drop right there but I’d bet you might cut their running distance down.

To be honest, deer running 50 yards is not bad. But if Tripplebeards wants more, he can try.

[Tripplebeards]

I’ve done a lot of googling on the 300 grain shockwave and it sounds like it’s pretty much the norm when using this bullet. I haven’t lost a single deer with them. I was just hoping to put them down a lot quicker. I’ll be excited to try some super soft pure lead hollow points next year that I can try and work up some Tighter grouping loads for but I just cut myself short with time this year.

[rodwha]

To be honest, deer running 50 yards is not bad. But if Tripplebeards wants more, he can try.

It’s not really bad at all. But the performance of his bullet is.

[rodwha]

I’ve done a lot of googling on the 300 grain shockwave and it sounds like it’s pretty much the norm when using this bullet. I haven’t lost a single deer with them. I was just hoping to put them down a lot quicker. I’ll be excited to try some super soft pure lead hollow points next year that I can try and work up some Tighter grouping loads for but I just cut myself short with time this year.

For sure. There’s no time to try things for this year. And you do get your deer.

Take note of the permanent wound channel and additional damage if you don’t mind. I’m a bit curious as to how the terminal performance would be as I’ve contemplated a long range setup with both SST’s and FPB’s, both of which are claimed to not expand as they should. However my powder charge would likely be half of what you are using in loose powder.

[megasupermagnum]

For sure. There’s no time to try things for this year. And you do get your deer.

Take note of the permanent wound channel and additional damage if you don’t mind. I’m a bit curious as to how the terminal performance would be as I’ve contemplated a long range setup with both SST’s and FPB’s, both of which are claimed to not expand as they should. However my powder charge would likely be half of what you are using in loose powder.

Don't forget that loose powder beats out pellets in just about every way except convenience. 100 grains 777 powder equals or exceeds the velocity of three 777 pellets (supposed to equal 150 grains). This was tested with brand new, freshly opened powder, and has been repeated by others.

The only deer I shot with 350 grain FPB's was with 100 grains of Blackhorn 209, with 120 grains being maximum. The shot went through the upper heart, both lungs, and the deer only went about 50 yards. Heart shots don't fail. At the time I was just happy, it was a decent buck, shot on the last day, freezing temps, and snowing. I would say it made about 1/2" hole all the way through, lethal, but not all that impressive. The problems arose when we found out they shoot great in most guns. My uncle shot three pellets 777 with them, and wounded a buck. We never found it. My dad was shooting two 777 pellets, and wounded either two or three. We only found one, a small buck. Maybe a 1/4" hole in one lung, took out the liver and some guts. I forget exactly, but I think it ran around 150 yards before it bedded down. We later found a skeleton that we believe was my uncles buck about 300 yards from where he shot it. There's no way to know for sure, but he is a good shot, he says it was a double lung shot. My dad isn't as good a shot (sorry dad), but he shot at least one if not two does at sub 20 yards, and that's a hard shot to miss. I helped track one for about 400 yards before we lost it.

Sometimes S happens, but retrieving 2 out of 5 deer, and neither was an impressive kill is not good. Maybe it was a bad batch of bullets. The one's I used were at least 2 years older. I would just avoid them, too many good options out there. That's the trouble with these new long range bullets. Sure they may get you an extra 25-50 yards of point blank range, but you are giving up the terminal performance at all ranges.

[rodwha]

I was not aware that loose was that much better (just checked, and granted it was one same bullet/load that I looked at, it was better than the 2 or 3F version). The one handgun chrono testing I saw (Pyrodex) made me think it was similar to energetic powder.

I’ve heard similar stories of their SST’s not expanding either, and with a smaller projectile you’d just have a smaller wound channel. I’ve always trusted Hornady though...

I’ve been wanting a muzzleloader barrel for shooting across fields from a blind, and liking the point blank system, want something I can shoot out to 200 yds with a 4” margin (+/- zero). All I could find using a .45 cal barrel is a saboted .40 SST estimating velocity of 75 grns of 3F. All sorts of stuff that can handle 175 yds, but fields can be wide.

[megasupermagnum]

At some point drop is drop, and you just have to accept some compensation. Get yourself a TC scout pistol, mine is accurate to 75 yards. Then you can sight your rifle to 200, and use the pistol for most stuff. For your listed +/- 4" to extend to 200 yards, you are looking at a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps minimum. That is possible, but you are stuck with light bullets, and absolute tip top powder charges, 120 grains with Blackhorn 209, and 140/150 grain with 777. You won't get there with blackpowder.

Muzzleloaders have got to the point that any person can now go out and shoot them with little work, but it's still a muzzleloader. It's supposed to be tough. You either have to accept the limitation, or learn to shoot at longer ranges without point blank range. That's where I feel guys get into trouble trying for that extra 25 yards and end up sacrificing too much. If you have a 45 caliber, that's all the more reason to be shooting a real conical bullet.

[rodwha]

I was actually just thinking about a closer range pistol and not worrying about point blank so much.

Actually Olde Eynsford and Swiss outperform Triple 7 from all I’ve read and been told by shooters.

It’s been quite some time since I was really looking over ballistics. Apparently for a 200 yd point blank I had to concede to +/- 5” with that bullet as I figured muzzle velocity to be in the low to mid 1800’s.

My current rifle is a .50 cal and with a 24” barrel as I figured my first rifle should be able to cover the most use. Compact and light (~7.5 lbs) enough for stalking yet good for 100-125 yds. For something long range and just for medium game I’ve thought along the lines of .375 to .410” paper patched/full bore or .452 to .458” and saboted. Weight on a 15/16” wouldn’t be much of a deal if it’s a blind rifle.

Initially I wanted a Malcolm style scope as it’s a sidelock. But I’ve been told not to discount peeps for that sort of range.

[rodwha]

There’s a fella who LOVES the Lee .500 paper patched in his Hawkens. Many others do too. He takes shots to 150 yds (initially) but practices to 300 (?). That bullet has a nice meplat! Seems better to use a good bullet and configure it to shoot from 100-200 yds well and use a handgun for closer up oddball shots. But some places I’ve hunted have a field on one side and good cover on the other.

[Tripplebeards]

My buddy came down a few years back to muzzle load hunt. I don’t Remember which muzzleloader hunter he brought but he has two TC‘s. It was either is 45 for 200 Grain Thompson center omega or his 50 Cal encore with 250 grain Hornadys. I’ll have to as Him but I’m pretty sure it was the 250 grain Hornaday’s....or Shockwaves. Well anyways I sat in the open and he walked up to my tree stand and not even five minutes later I heard him shoot. He shot a basket rack eight pointer that walked by about a minute after he sat in the stand. He couldn’t find blood so he came and got me about 15 minutes later. I ended up finding his deer within minutes. It went about 100 yards with zero blood and he double lung it. To be fair the deer probably went 75 yards or less, stopped and rolled down a steep hill. At least my 300 grainers will start blowing blood out for a trail after about 20 or 30 yards. The 300 range shockwaves I use will kill a deer every time I’m confident in them I was just hoping to get something with the quicker dispatch. I’m confident in my shooting capabilities and I’ve always take double lung broadside shots at closer ranges so I know the deer is dead when I pull the trigger and I just have to find it. Do you know come to think of it I know the 300 grain shock wave always leaves a bigger than bullet diameter exit hole. Probably around an inch. Give or take. It just amazes me that every deer have reacted exactly the same. I thought I would have gotten one to drop a little quicker..at least once.


I think the lee 300 FN casted pure would be a hammer if it shoots accurately.



I just look at it this way...if my gun shoots all in the same hole with a load off the bench and in the real world I’m out in the woods free handing a shot and I flinch or something goofy happens making my bullet wander off its path a couple inches I’m still going to be on the money. But when I’m shooting a 2 1/4 inch group off the bench at 100 yards and the same thing happens I could have a bullet that wandered a good five or 6 inches either way missing vitals.

[rodwha]

My buddy came down a few years back to muzzle load hunt. I don’t Remember which muzzleloader hunter he brought but he has two TC‘s. It was either is 45 for 200 Grain Thompson center omega or his 50 Cal encore with 250 grain Hornadys. I’ll have to as Him but I’m pretty sure it was the 250 grain Hornaday’s....or Shockwaves. Well anyways I sat in the open and he walked up to my tree stand and not even five minutes later I heard him shoot. He shot a basket rack eight pointer that walked by about a minute after he sat in the stand. He couldn’t find blood so he came and got me about 15 minutes later. I ended up finding his deer within minutes. It went about 100 yards with zero blood and he double lung it. To be fair the deer probably went 75 yards or less, stopped and rolled down a steep hill. At least my 300 grainers will start blowing blood out for a trail after about 20 or 30 yards. The 300 range shockwaves I use will kill a deer every time I’m confident in them I was just hoping to get something with the quicker dispatch. I’m confident in my shooting capabilities and I’ve always take double lung broadside shots at closer ranges so I know the deer is dead when I pull the trigger and I just have to find it. Do you know come to think of it I know the 300 grain shock wave always leaves a bigger than bullet diameter exit hole. Probably around an inch. Give or take. It just amazes me that every deer have reacted exactly the same. I thought I would have gotten one to drop a little quicker..at least once.


I think the lee 300 FN casted pure would be a hammer if it shoots accurately.



I just look at it this way...if my gun shoots all in the same hole with a load off the bench and in the real world I’m out in the woods free handing a shot and I flinch or something goofy happens making my bullet wander off its path a couple inches I’m still going to be on the money. But when I’m shooting a 2 1/4 inch group off the bench at 100 yards and the same thing happens I could have a bullet that wandered a good five or 6 inches either way missing vitals.

I hear ya. I’m sort of the same way in my thinking. We read often enough 6-8” means venison, but I like 4” (or less) because it helps cover over any mistake I may make.

While using a .270 Win, and talking a lot with my former Marine and old boss who took me hunting, neck shots were talked about. No tracking whatsoever. Of course you need an excellent rest, but I wonder how your bullet might perform then. I always shot the first third of the next by the shoulders as that portion doesn’t actually move so much when they move their head around.

[Tripplebeards]

And how many deer get shot an inch above the neck and run around suffering people will never know. I am not a head or neck shooter and never will be...again. I have dropped several deer with head shots. All it took was one between the eyes with an arrow and it jumped up from the ground and ran into a tree and then got up again and ran away and I never found it. I felt so bad I quit hunting for the rest of the season that year. Taking a center mass body shot allows for error. A head or neck shot you’re either on or off. Imo you better be resting on something while squeezing the trigger and hoping that deer doesn’t turn or bob its head. I just consider myself a better sportsman and owe it to the deer not to let it suffer. In my opinion every guy that says they shot a deer in the head or the neck there’s five or six of them running around that they gimped that they either didn’t know they did or won’t admit. I’ve seen a lot of these wounded deer that I’ve had to finish off in the woods during the season and wasting my tag and it burns my butt. I have a few surrounding neighbors that are very poor marksman. I remember I free handed a coyote in blew it’s job off all it was facing me. I ended up tracking it down. It went about 150 yards under some brush and tried to bite me with no Jaw. Dirty coyotes I’ll shoot them in the head all day long but deer I wont anymore unless it’s the only option I had.

[rodwha]

I’m skeptical about doing so with a muzzleloader as it doesn’t have the speed like that 130 grn bullet.

Aiming at that first third cuts things to near nil as far as movement and not hitting the important spot. Granted I’ve only shot a handful in the neck none were off the mark. But I can certainly appreciate the sentiment, especially after a result such as that.