I've found power belts to be accurate and easy to work with. Hunting with them has always been very disappointing. Have taken a couple of deer with them, but never again. No expansion. Fast or slow at impact, and I've never got any good expansion. I'll never use them again. Shock Waves work better for me. Back to the OP, sabots with soft lead cast are a good way to go.
I've been asking myself about shot placement recently as well. There's really only 4 good ways to shoot a deer broadside (slightly toward or away is ok), three frontal, and facing away is just not a great bet. For a broad side you have a double lung, heart, shoulder, or neck shot. I don't even consider a brain shot, as it is just not a good idea. For the frontal you can go for the neck or chest, the chest being dead center, or if a bow hunter, slightly off to go between the breast bones. Ultimately the goal in a frontal chest shot is a heart shot. Facing a way is tough with many variables. Straight away from a stand, and firearm hunting, you can shoot through the spine and hit the heart. On the ground, facing straight away is really only viable if you are shooting a handgun with solid hard cast bullets, or a good shotgun slug like a Brenneke. I wouldn't even trust a rifled slug, and most smaller bore rifles like 30 caliber have a tendency to veer too much for that kind of shot. I just avoid it all together.
Most guys hope for a broadside shot, and either put one just behind the leg and double lung them, or shoot the shoulder. I have always preferred a heart shot, which is about 1/3rd up the body, and about centered with the shoulder. 1/2 the time I get the heart, 1/2 the time I get the lungs. Most anatomy pictures have the heart in the wrong spot, it is about centered with the leg. For some dumb reason this year, with my handgun, I went for the bowhunter shot just behind the shoulder. I'm 100% sure that deer is dead close by, but between 4 of us we could not find him. I started pouring rain 20 minutes after the shot, the ground was frozen, and we couldn't tell where he went. We spent too much time looking in a corn field in the direction he ran, but looking back, I think he cut around down wind, and bedded down in the swamp. He's coyote food now, S happens.
Now I'm not sure a heart shot would have helped, but it sure would not have hurt. Shoulder shots scare me though. If you miss low, sure you get the lungs. Otherwise you have about a 2" window to either take the shoulders out, possibly spine, or wound it. That's not a lot of margin for error. A deer's heart is bigger, and it is encased in the lungs which are huge. I've only taken a few neck shots, and all of them were instantly disabling. Not all got the spine either. The biggest buck I ever shot stopped behind a downed tree and looked right at me at 15 yards. I shot him dead center in the neck with a rifled shotgun slug and he died instantly. When butchering, we found the slug had only glanced off of the spine. but did not break it. I'm sure you could shoot over the spine and wound one, but I don't think that animal will suffer too bad compared to many injuries. Anything from the spine to the adams apple is lethal, they wont recover if you puncture their throat. I still won't take that shot on purpose, but it is effective. It makes a lot more sense if you shoot something like a 6mm that doesn't penetrate well, but shoots very accurate, and causes meat to turn to mush.
The most effective shot I've seen isn't even legal around here. Large buckshot from a shotgun, placed at the base of the neck. You can take out the neck, spine, shoulder, and lungs all in one shot.
Anyway, I've found even heart shots are often a 30-50 yard run. Some just fall over, I've never had one make it over 50 yards.
Yes I agree that most people that shoot deer in the neck were aiming center mass of the deer and their boolit/bullet veered off and hit the spine or the neck....they weren’t aiming for it. I guess if I shot my 2 1/4 inch group cast load and flinch a little bit I probably have a good chance for a spine and neck shot to. Lol
I’ve always aim center mass or a little lower for the heart right behind the front shoulder and my bullet has been accurate enough to land where I aim most times so the chance of myself back boning a deer is slim and none unless I’m aiming for it which I won’t. The only way I guess I would aim for it is if the deer was directly below me out of my tree stand but a broadside shot it’s not gonna happen. Center mass shot broadside moving up and down a couple inches is still gonna put me in the heart of the lungs if I flinch or hit a branch. A couple inches aiming for a spine either way is going to go over the deer for a complete miss or just shooting through the back straps. No offense... but I think most people that shoot deer in the back bone flinched, hit a branch, or just need to work on their marksmanship a little better. Everyone here talks about saving so much meat and eating to the hole with cast bullets but a backbone/spine shot is wrecking your back strap meat or a chunk of your neck. A broad side shot through the ribs wrecks nothing except for the internals no matter how violently the bullet expands and comes apart. I just read on another person here shooting cast boolits and back boning a deer. Great job!...And I don’t mean to take away from it but they weren’t aiming for the back bone...the bullet just landed there. I wish I had a pair of x-ray glasses so I can see through a deer to shoot the back bone every time and I would hit it because I know I’m a good enough marksman but I still wouldn’t aim for it because I’d also be throwing away a lot of meat. Both deer I shot with J words this year I lost zero meat (as usual)with broadside shots. I did lose a liver on one though because I hit a little far back when it was on a trot. I can remember throwing away a lot of meat with some back bone shots in years past literally blowing apart the back straps. Just not my cup of tea. IMO 99.9% of the people don’t aim for the back bone and by pure dumb luck their bullet just ends up there.
Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-04-2019 at 12:24 PM.
A couple of posters asked me for update how the 300 grain shockwave worked with damage pics. Today was the last day of muzzleloader season where I could use y unused gun buck tag. I went out earlier in the week and the only thing I saw was a small doe. I watched it for over an hour and took a shot through the brush while it was standing around 75 yards or a little further. I should’ve waited till I had a clear shot. The deer ran like it wasn’t hit and went out of sight. I also knew I flinched when I shot. I went to look for blood,hair, and the deer but didn’t find anything. I figured it was a clean miss. Well today it was 2° out and it was the last day. I headed out to my stand when warmed up to 7°. I built a A hunting shack for my pops and figured I would have fun and sit in that thing. I also left my Mr. buddy heater in it from last year so I figured once I got in it I’d fire it up. I walked up to the blind as I was just getting in the woods and noticed a deer standing broadside with its head and front shoulder behind a tree at a little over 75 yards from me. It looked as if it was perfectly broadside but I found out it wasn’t after shooting it. I couldn’t tell if it was a buck or a doe, if it was big, or if it was small. All I knew was it was cold and I had five doe tags yet to fill and one buck tag. I quickly and quietly side stepped three steps to the nearest tree to lean my muzzle loader against for a solid shot. All I could see was the deer’s ribs and a rear end while it was still standing broadside with its head and front shoulder hiding behind a large hickory tree. When I put my scope up on it I could see several rib indentations so I knew I could forward enough to make a lung shot. I cocked it and let the hammer fly. The smoke cleared and I could see the deer tilted over a little from the shot and disappeared behind a few trees. It Immediately appeared and ran a good 20 to 30 yards directly down hill, hooked right, and leaped directly towards my direction within 15 yards. It was leaping with its tail up look as healthy as an ox like it wasn’t shot and running right past me. I continue to watch it go about 30 yards behind me and stop behind a cedar tree. I saw his tail wiggle a couple of times and heard a couple of twigs breaking. I figured if that was the same deer it must’ve been a complete miss. But then I thought to myself maybe there were two deer there and when the deer I shot at went out of sight it might have went over the hill away from me and there could’ve been another one with it that jumped up at the shot and ran past me. So I went into the woods where I originally shot at the deer instead of walking in where I last saw the deer by the cedar to check for blood and hair. I figured if that was a different deer I didn’t want to push it across the road and if it was and wounded I don’t want to push it. I found zero blood and zero hair where it was standing when I shot so I figured it must’ve been a complete miss just like the other day and maybe my muzzleloader was off. I then figured I would go into the direction where I saw the deer ran past me. I followed the tracks that went right past me with zero blood. The last 15 to 20 yards before the cedar tree where I saw it stop I found two or three drops of blood half the diameter of a pencil eraser on the ground and then every couple of feet there were more drops. I walked another 10 feet and kept looking through the brush thinking I must not of hit it very well since there was hardly any blood and maybe I’ll get lucky and It would be bedded down where I last saw it so I could try and finish it off before it crossed the road onto someone else’s property. It basically was heading right towards where I parked my truck and it was maybe 20 yards away from the road where I found it. It dropped right where I last saw it. It wasn’t a perfect shot by any means but it did a lot of damage. It just never bled externally till the last 15 to 20 yards which were just a few drops of blood here and there. I took out one lung and the liver look like a grenade went off on it. Apparently it was not broadside and facing me at an angle as the bullet exited the second of the last rib on the other side and low. It unfortunately hit the stomach as well which must’ve clogged the exit hole. Good thing I watched the direction of that deer I remembered where I saw it last. Just like you guys say some deer die on the spot and some have a will to live. The lung that I took was probably the last 4 to 5 inches of it. It wasn’t completely gone like my high-powered rifles would’ve done. I could feel chunks of it when I pulled it out. It amazes me how tough animals are and how far they can go the inside of that deer was disgusting.
The entry hole...
And the exit...
With all the blood on the deer were it laid you would’ve thought it was pouring out of it the whole way!
Oh...and when I got home and skinned it tonight to my surprise I found a fresh wound at the top of his shoulder blades! That’s where I aimed at the other deer when I pulled the trigger the other day. I aimed right for its front shoulder and knew I flinched. I have the gun sighted in 2 inches high at 100 yards so it should hit dead at 150. I Musta gave it a haircut. There was a fresh scab on the meat that I cut right off and it had a good size hole in the Hyde from the bullet grazing it. The scab was shallow and fresh enough that it didn’t hit the back straps so I got lucky. When I shot this deer today it actually was 10 yards away from the exact spot the other one was bedding the other day than I took a shot at. I’m pretty sure it was the same deer.
Luckily it was shallow enough that it didn’t get into the back straps or shoulder.
Well it’s at home now in the garage aging... No it’s probably already frozen solid. I did already cut out the tenderloins, back straps, and save the heart. I took them in the house and put them in a cooler with ice to try and age them as well.
So long story short the bullet hit where I aimed, it killed the deer, the blood trail sucked again, and it went farther than I thought it would. I’m Definitely going to switch bullets next year. I think a pure lead cast boolit in a Sabot is calling my name
Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-12-2019 at 12:33 AM.
That exit certainly looks nasty enough to say it expanded well enough. Quite surprised that there wasn’t much blood from a wound looking like that.
Have you tried full bore conicals?
That sure looks devastating to me, I do not think you can improve on that. Try a full size bullet, that's about the only thing you can do. 308 Winchester sure vaporizes water jugs. My 54 caliber muzzleloader with a 440 grain full bore conical with a wide flat nose just makes them disappear. You might find a few shreds of plastic is about it.
Traditional muzzleloader hunting is supposed to be challenging, not just an extended season. At least that's what I tell myself. -18 this weekend, does are moving now and then, haven't connected with an adult buck yet.
Where’s the like button?Originally Posted by megasupermagnum
I use to shoot conical’s out of my night BK 92 and traditions in line 54 cal years ago with loose powder. It was not a very accurate combination. The first year the 777 50 grain pellets came out I switched over to them and never look back as they were way more accurate for me. Today starts and where was only season and I can use a rifle again. It’s Thursday through Sunday. So I’m off to the woods this afternoon with my Ruger 7744 and cast.
Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-12-2019 at 09:33 AM.
Good luck!
It’s 28° and raining right now! How can it rain when it’s below freezing I’ll never know. I never got my new tires put on my truck yet and are sitting in the garage so I don’t dare make the trip out to my property today as when the sun goes down I’m sure it’ll be a skating rink on the roads and I drive over some pretty big steep hills. Figured it’s not worth my life to shoot another deer. I believe tomorrow’s going to the same Weather conditions. Saturday and Sunday the temps are supposed to drop way down but no precipitation so I guess I’ll wait and go then.
So when I start experimenting with cast lead bullets I am running 150 grains of triple seven through my gun. A 250 grain bullet is doing about 2250 ft./s according to Thompson centers ballistics and a 300 Grain bullet is 2150fps. That has got to be going way too fast for a pure lead HP bullet I’m guessing. I would think my 16 to 1 pewter and lead mix is still going to be pretty soft with that speed?
You likely are not going to get those numbers in reality. You might be able to get close with loose 777, but not pellets. The fastest I ever ran over the chrony with 777 pellets was around 1850 fps, and that was with a 300 grain SST in a sabot. I never messed with anything lighter. With these kinds of velocities, there is another option. A pure lead solid bullet, which will not come apart easily like a HP. The best of all worlds. A HP can still work, especially if you truly believe in energy dump. I do not buy the theory myself.
You could also use less than 150 grains too. You have obviously had differing experiences, but I have yet to have 150 grains of anything shoot great.
If you look on Hodgdon’s site you’ll see they show 100 grns of loose powder outperforms the pellets. I’d venture to guess 120 grns might equal 3 pellets, and at a much better price.
My sling has a few slots that hold speed loaders.
This is the “marketing” velocity chart that I believe Thompson center posted years ago on their website on the same page as their 28” barreled Omega. I saw another chart Years later on some other website that said it was only 1850 or 1950 ft./s with my load. I’ll have to run it across my chronograph to see what velocity it really does come out of my barrel. Whatever velocity does or doesn’t come out I will still stick with the pellets. They’re fast, easy, and precise which is what I want for hunting. I haven’t tried the white pellets. I remember quite a years later TC changed this to two 50 grain pellets with the 300 grain shockwave and revised their load data. They must have had a few shooters that had problems with 150 grains of pellets I’m guessing and thought they were over charged. Couldn’t tell you but all I know is this load combo works well i. four different TC guns I’ve tried very accurately.
I do remember back in The day when I used to be a head shooter and now I detest it. I shot a double back to back head shots with this bullet and of course they never kicked. Both went down where they stood DRT.
The first one walked underneath my tree stand and shot it approximately 15 feet away at an angle directly between the eyes and an inch or so higher on center with a brain shot. There was one with it that ran. I loaded up my muzzleloader and got out of the ladder stand. When my feet touched the ground I turned around and saw the other one staring at me at 45 yards. I leaned my gun right across one of the step rails for a steady shot and drilled that one right between the eyes. So backbones and Headshots put deer down where they stand with this load... But I won’t take a headshot anymore unless it’s the absolute only option I have. I own a ridge top and a lot of times deer walk below where I stand and all I can see is the head and I still pass them up. I figure someday that I’m going to see a big giant rack I’m not gonna have a choice but to drill it in the melon again. I don’t purposely aim for backbones because it destroys way too much meat and it doesn’t kill them, just paralyze, and I end up having to shoot them again. Obviously from looking at the results my bullet expanded it’s just because it’s moving so slow it doesn’t have tons of kinetic energy transfer imo i’m like it’s been said thousands of times some deer just have a will to live and don’t know their dead yet.
My guess is no matter what bullet I end up trying I’m probably going to get the same type of results because it’s a big heavy slow moving bullet. I might at least get a better blood trail if with a softer alloy but I’m not expecting any bullet to drop a deer where it stands with this slow velocity smoke pole unless I hit the CNS. Out of all the googling, reading, and a some of my buddies on deer results with shoot muzzleloaders they all basically have the same findings as I do with no matter what bullet they use. I haven’t read about one magic bullet yet in a muzzleloader that everybody’s excited about that lifts deer off their feet and slams them to the ground. It’s just a dream that’s not gonna happen. I believe it’s just the nature of the beast with muzzle loading and more challenging just as you stated above. Muzzle loaders reminds me of saying back in the day with Buffalo. Shoot today and find tomorrow... It’s not that bad trust me I’m just over exaggerating. But with a buffalo and one shot I bet you that’s was the norm.
Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-13-2019 at 11:34 AM.
I've used this brand of sabo/ bullet in my G/M quick-twist for a number of years. Shoots well and from a manufacture that informs its customers of their products capability and suggested bullet weight. (lots of real life testimony to read)
Not all B/P projectile manufactures hunt with the product they market. "Those at Precision Bullet do."
www.prbullet.com
Those things are junk! My buddy worked ran a shop out in Phoenix and they stopped carrying them probably a good 10/12 years ago because Everybody that tried them couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn. He gave me 12 packs of them. All in every variation that that manufacture makes. I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn if I was locked inside of it with those boolits! I can’t believe they’re still in business. I tried every one of those and all my buddies muzzleloaders is well with the same results. I blame it on their crummy sabots. If you’re having luck with them you’re the only one I know. I ended up giving them to a buddy who started muzzleloader hunting years ago and I asked him the other day what he did with them... He threw them out because he had the same poor results as everybody else that tried them. I’m sure if they hit their mark they would do a lot of damage since they are pure lead with a ballistic tip. They just all fit way too loosely every muzzleloader I loaded them in which I’m sure that was the problem. They manufacture their Sabots too small in diameter if I had to guess. If he still had them I’d put them in the TC sabots and try them but they’re long gone. I even tried to bundle sell all 12 packs on eBay and nobody would give me a dollar start bid with $5 shipping ...it was hilarious. I remembered one even had double sabots one inside of another.lol that one shot the worst of all. I think it was a 175 grain boolit if I remember.
Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-13-2019 at 06:59 PM.
Just saying I've never had a problem with PR. I do like P/Rs ability to reload quickly in a fouled barrel quite unlike MMP and Harvester {standards} two firings back to back if ~ lucky. My P/R's use is in a G/M stainless 45 cal barrel only.
All the rifles I own are side-locks in 45_54 _58 cal. I do have a dedicated 54 Renegade that shoots T/C Break-a way's only (the barrels preferred) with a home cast 44 cal 215-gr soft lead H.P. I drill the HP's on a drill press so I can control there expansion_cavity size and depth. Such bullets slam MN deer hard to the ground but.~~ Lots of bone fragmentation and blood shot tissue incurred with there using. So the Renegade isn't taken afield very often if I can help it.
Here's something some members here are aware of. I moved on sometime ago in my B/P projectile choice. For years now I've found the littl 45 cal patched ball has been quite suitable for my B/P deer needs.
From day one I've never cared to own a 50 cal inline or side lock. Although I've researched the 50 cal here & there over the years and I never suggest a product online I haven't tried and been satisfied with.
BTWHarvester {crush-rib} made.I blame it on their crummy sabots
They Must have switch Sabots then because absolutely none of them were harvester crush ribs. Everyone one of them were as smooth as silk on the outside. Just all different colors of the rainbow. I specifically remember the orange and blue sabots stacked on top of each other for the long range 175s in .375 diameter. I can remember seeing the ads when they first came out back in the day and I thought those were the coolest thing I ever saw...until I tried them. I have tried about 15 different sabots now and the only one that groups the tightest is the black sabot that gets used in the TC originals. They are really soft. TC sells them Separately and are called the TC mag express sabot. Im sure someone like harvester makes them for TC. I have tried their thicker and harder blues and yellows and also hornady’s reds. They are all harder plastic composition and open up groups. This seems to be the norm in the group of muzzleloaders I tried load testing in as they all had the exact same grouping results. I have not tried the crushed rib sabots yet because of the time of testing they were not manufactured yet. I would assume dead center got smart and switch them because the general consensus was the bullets couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn in most muzzleloaders with them. And that wasn’t my opinion that was a fact they were got pulled off the shelves at the sporting good store after several complaints years ago and literally got thrown away that’s how I got them for testing. Like I said I’m sure it’s probably a good boolit if it if it hit where it aimed. I googled them to see if they’ve gotten any better in the first review I saw which is basically the only one so you know they’re not popular in on the shelves anymore was by Randy Wakeman and he literally slammed them. He basically said the heaviest one which was 340 grains which was the only one that he would maybe consider using. He basically said the rest were junk. So in all the years that passed I don’t think they’ve improved. But I’m sure if they now use a crush rib sabot they knew they had accuracy issues and changed.
I started out with modern in lines when they first came out I think it was 89’. The reason being is Wisconsin extended their hunting season to be able to harvest a deer with an unused buck tag if he didn’t get one during the normal rifle season. At that time I was a big horn hunter and still am to a certain extent. I figured this was a way I could get some extra buck opportunities in the woods because most people around that time had no clue what a muzzleloader was or much less walked out in the woods with one. I have yet to take a big buck with one is all I have to say. By the time gun deer season is over the big bucks are all nocturnal in my area and I don’t drive...I’m a stand hunter. I’ve taken several smaller bucks and several doe just to fill my tag and learn from the experience from what muzzleloaders do on deer. I’ll take a Waterproof sealed breach any day of the week over a traditional model muzzleloader. I still plan on getting some just to have fun and tinker with. I just wouldn’t walk out in the woods and spend hours on end on a wet snowy WI muzzleloader season day to find out my gun didn’t fire when it counts. That’s the reason most manufacturers modernized them so the guns would be reliable and that’s why the older ones I hate to say it already as popular... But I still think they’re cool and they have a place and I plan on getting one soon. Most manufacturers stopped producing the traditional rifles years ago. It suck, because now if you want one your going to pay 2 to 3 times more than what they sold for new with a corroded barrel because the average person didn’t know how to clean or maintain them. I’ve had FTFs,hanging fires with loose powder, and a few dud caps with number 11 primers while hunting. I have had ZERO fail to fires with 209 shotgun primes and Hodgen pellets.
Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-14-2019 at 12:07 PM.
Were those long range versions a sabot inside of a sabot? I’ve wondered about such, but it seemed a bit silly and possible for them to not work as designed, to break away.
Yes, the long range version is what I was referring to. My buddy had over a case full of all their offerings that were getting tossing out per the store owners request. He was their gunsmith at the time and asked if he could have them instead of tossing in the trash. They also got rid of all their muzzleloaders, air rifles, and fly fishing rods the same week and he bought four TC muzzle loaders and a few high end air rifles for pennies on the dollar and was given a bunch of Saint Croix and G loomis fly rods. Sucks to be him. He gave me two packs of each one from 175 up to 340 grains. Every one of their offerings I tested shot 3’ plus groups at 100 yards out of my omega. I tested all of them in all four of his Thompson centers which consisted of 2 Omegas and two encores, my Omega, his brothers Encore, and my buddies Omega all with the same horrible results. So 7 muzzle loaders that all shot 3’ plus groups with everyone of the offerings was enough reassurance for me to never buy or recommend them. The dead centers fit very loose down every barrel I tested. I still say they had a sabot issue. Once again none were crush rib sabots. All were smooth on the outside like the TC’s I use but the dead center plastic sabots were a lot harder and stiffer. I don’t believe they properly sealed the bores on every one of the rifles I tested which explains why they were all over the place.
Last day of our anterless hunt today and I didn’t get a chance to test out my cast bullets out of the 77/44. We have a holiday hunt hunt coming up the 24th through the 31st so i’m hoping to get out the last couple of days.
Last edited by Tripplebeards; 12-15-2019 at 11:51 PM.
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