Dave
Is that Vaquero one of the old heavy frame guns? If it is you can put some pretty substantial loads through it.
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Dave
Is that Vaquero one of the old heavy frame guns? If it is you can put some pretty substantial loads through it.
This is a good thread.
The OP is situated differently than someone on the east coast due to the presence of larger predators but his basic question is still valid:
"What makes a good trail gun?"
Like Outpost75, I don't need to worry about some animal eating me for lunch in my part of the country. However, the concept of a trail gun/kit gun/woods gun, etc., is one I've given a lot of thought.
My criteria include the following:
Lightweight - not featherweight but no more mass than needed.
Accurate - this is a bit subjective but the gun needs to be consistently capable of putting the rounds where needed. This standard gets a bit complicated when you add the shooter to the gun. What you can do with the gun is different than what the gun is capable of.
Most snubnosed revolvers are capable of fine accuracy but it's difficult for the shooter to extract that level of accuracy from a snubnose. The sight radius is short and the grips are small. I'm proficient with a snubnose revolver but I still wouldn't select one as a "Kit Gun" because there's no need to limit yourself to small grips and short barrels on a "Kit Gun" (or Trail Gun).
Weather resistant - This is an important factor for me. The gun must be durable.
Reasonably powerful - This is obviously going to mean different things to different people. In most east coast settings the biggest threat is other people !
Easy to carry - this is a tough criteria to define. For me this means a revolver with a maximum barrel length of 5" or in a pistol something no larger than a government model 1911. Obviously this is going to be different for everyone but a "Kit Gun" (or trail gun) is just a tool like a pocket knife, watch, lighter, whatever. Most of the time it's just along for the ride. It needs to be "packable", for the lack of a better term. It's not a primary hunting weapon.
The "hotness" seems to be 44 mag or 10mm. On my first big game trip out west, I chose a G20. Loaded up some 200gr Hornady XTP, but I have some Missouri 200gr FP to test. I'm using Accurate #7 powder. 15+1 of 200 grains traveling at nearly 1200fps is no slouch. I was pleased with the accuracy, and it was more controllable than expected. Two handed, or one handed shooting showed good control and follow up shot if necessary. Never fired a 44 mag handgun, but did with the cartridge in a Marlin levergun.
As a comparison, 9, 40, 45 do not stop an angered hog head on. Buddy who goes for that game on a regular basis now carries a 4" 357.
Your experience far outpaces mine, but I don't know if I'd carry a 9 or 40 as a trail gun when my life is on the line. I used to carry a 357, but the allure of the 10 caught me. Awful lot of pew in that package.
Last edited by soflarick; 01-19-2020 at 12:12 PM.
My thought for this thread was just to open some dialogue. I started hand gun hunting at age 14, that was 62 years ago. I have shot a bit of everything in North America, with the exception of Grizzly bears and Javelina. I believe that what constitutes a good trail gun, is pretty subjective. One of the largest bears ever taken was killed by a native woman in Northern Canada with a .22 rifle. Bullet diameter is not as important as shot placement and penetration.
The weight of whatever side arm, one carries can be mitigated by holster selection. These days there are a lot of "super" magnums, which at the end of the day may be just candidates for "bragging rites".. "mine is bigger than yours"..!
One of the most useful handgun cartridges of all time is the .45 Colt, in the original loading, 40 gr. of black powder under a 255 gr. lead bullet. This loading in a 7.5" 1873 Colt produced just over 1000 fps. The only real improvement to this loading is a bullet that cuts a full diameter hole. Handgun hunting and bow hunting are similar in that they both depend on haemorrhage, and not any sort of hydrostatic shock. There are some exceptions, the .460 S&W is capable velocities 0f 2000 fps+ that do produce hydrostatic effects in tissue.
A friend of mine on his first Alaska moose hunt, intended to hunt with a .45-70, on his first night in camp, on the Kenai Peninsula, he was out for a walk just looking over the area, he had a single action .44 magnum, loaded with .44spl., he did not like the recoil of the magnum rounds. As he was walking around the camp area a big cow moose came by, he elected to take a shot with the .44. After the shot the cow ran about 100 yards and went down. The commercial 240 gr. RN bullet had penetrated both lungs and killed the moose.
My older brother killed a large bear on Kodiak Island with a Ruger Blackhawk .357magnum, his comment about the incident, was that after the sixth shot, he wished he had purchased the .44 magnum. However he survived and the .357 did the job.
So what do I think is the best trail gun...it is probably the one you have. I favour hard cast bullets, either SWC, or a RNFP with a large meplat.
On the average you will probably have a higher probability of being struck by lightening, or getting bitten by the neighbours dog than being attacked by a large predator, so whatever you carry is better than nothing.
It's always interesting to read other people's thoughts (which is the dialogue you seek!). So, here's mine.
Starting at the last statement in your post, yes, the odds of an encounter with a large predator is unlikely; and even less likely for the predator to be aggressive than to retreat, but it does happen. Yes again, something is better than nothing, but why not give yourself a better chance and arm yourself in anticipation of the worst possible circumstances?
Your brother was fortunate that he had time for a 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, or even a 2nd shot after the 1st. Had he not, had the bear become irate about being shot the first time, decided to come ahead in a full bore charge it would have been better for that 1st shot to have been the passed-over .44 Mag. Having had that regret, I wonder what he chooses to carry afield now days. (?)
I do believe that a woman killed a bear with a .22 rifle. Everything has been killed with a .22 rifle, including (I am told) an elephant. But this is not the normal caliber one would choose, nor is it the normal result of using that caliber on large game. Numerous felons sustained multiple hits from .38 Specials back when the issue cartridge was loaded with a 158 gr. RN bullet, and lived long enough to return fire and/or flee. On the other hand, I once saw a Mexican narco trafficante in an emergency room who had been executed by being shot in the inner corner of the eye with a .22 L.R. and then dumped over the downhill embankment along a road. After awhile he climbed back up the embankment and was given a ride to the hospital where he was in bed with an x-ray clipped beside his gurney. It showed that the .22 had passed through his brain and then split into two pieces which were lodged inside the back of his brain at the back of his skull. He lived long enough for the authorities to arrive and take his dying declaration as to who had killed him. But the police never did use the .22 as their weapon of choice, and today, although much improved, the .38 Spec. is mostly also gone as a police weapon as well.
Well, of course, humans and animals are different; and with a human there is the "OMG...I've been shot!" psychological factor, and animals don't realize what it is that has given them sudden pain, but likely associate it with you-the-shooter. I remember a somewhat similar thread recently about the best handgun to carry for bears, and a couple of posters asserted that bear's skulls aren't impenetrable--and this is true. But, they are relatively thick, hard and sloped, and when a bear attacks it comes as fast as it can (pretty fast!) with its neck stretched forward and its head tilted back and its mouth open because......it wants to bite you! So an attempted brain shot may well skid off the glacis of the skull like a .50 Cal. off a tank's turret. If you can put a round into that open mouth that might work, but you'd really have to be in possession of nerves of steel to perform precision shooting under the circumstances, and therefore I submit that a chest shot is more likely and a large caliber the better choice.
I'm also in agreement with you that today's super magnum handguns aren't good for much more than bragging rights unless they are used by someone of heavy build who practices a lot. For the average woods walker, he is much better armed with a .45 Colt or .44 Magnum (and he also needs to practice). The SWC is an excellent choice. If yo'r a po' boy, and all you've got is a 9mm, by all means carry it if you're going to venture into predator country. Other places, a .410 might be a better choice if the threat is slithery legless animal.
Me, for now at least, I intend to stick with my .45 L.C., but I am seriously considering a 1911-type pistol in 10mm for the rapid repeat shots. No .22s, 9mms, or 38s! But, if someone wants them, they're there.
Last edited by Der Gebirgsjager; 01-19-2020 at 06:30 PM.
With modern cast bullets the .44-40 and .45 Colt are better than ever and provide a compact and effective package which is also effective with shot loads.
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The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
"Ain't nothin' wrong with that", as they say.
All one needs is a small bow and a big balls
On the video..For several years I wandered the wild places in Alaska armed with nothing more than my old Martin 70# longbow and a quiver full of handmade wooden arrows. I never had a bear that close, a real testimonial for tree stands. There is another video out there of a fellow that hunts bears with a blowgun.
I carried a Blackhawk in .45 Colt for a lot of years, a bonus in carrying the big .45 is the fact that they will hold a lot of birdshot, the above target shows a pretty good pattern for a rifled barrel.
Again, I would reiterate that this is not a calibre debate, I live in the forest and am out every day, I have bears wolves and mountain lions, so any time of the years there may be something to see. Some days I carry my heavily loaded Rewhawk .45 Colt, or my S&W mod 29, some days one of the .357s, .45ACP, or the 9mm.
On the story of the fellow shot in the head with a .22.. A lifelong friend of mine, who went to Alaska when I did, we were both State Troopers until we retired, early on in his career he went to an apartment in Anchorage, the occupant had not been seen for a couple of days, my friend went into the apartment and found the occupant sitting at a table, there was a .45 Auto some distance away , the fellow had attempted suicide, but had only managed a frontal lobotomy. He survived the self inflicted surgery, I have no idea of for how long.
For convenience of carry, and for the non reloader, the 10mm with FMJ bullets is hard to beat, in the same vein there is the .45 SMC. The claim is that the .45 SMC can be fired in any +P rated .45ACP without any alteration. I tend to be a bit skeptical on that point.
On the issue of .45 ACP a load that I have carried for over thirty years, is the #68 Hensley and Gibbs bullet loaded over 7.5 gr. of Unique. The similar shaped Lyman bullet load from the manual claims 900 fps and change in a 5" barrel. I have chronographed that load a number of times with old and new Unique and my results have been: average velocity of 1050 in my 1911 pattern guns and 1025 in my 4.5" Remington.
I would not sell the 9mm short as a good trail gun. PHIL SHOEMAKER an Alaskan guide, stopped a charging grizzly with his 9mm loaded with Buffalo Bore hard cast bullets. It doesn't appear that there any head shots, all good solid body hits. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=388
Much to think about in this thread.
I have lived in black bear country for seven years on 20 acres backing onto 4-5k acres of state land and my closest neighbor is 3/4 of a mile away. I am remote and far in the woods. Factoring out bears encountered during dog training and hunting, I have seen two, possibly three bears. Every time, they wanted no part of me and ran away at good speed. I guess one day a really hungry one might see me as a walking buffet but not yet.
The facts are there are 19000 bears in the state and about 17000 live the Upper Peninsula, leaving 2000 in the rest of the state. Over the last few decades I doubt there have been more than 10 attacks. Not much of threat really. Might be nice to rationalize needing something more effective but I think John nailed it...at least for me...my trial gun will be the gun I already have.
I am good with it, it does not recoil excessively, and is the gun I always carry anyway. KISS
Just like a self defense gun, the caliber is less important than the bullet used, and where it is placed. A Glock with SD ammunition will work for me.
Good thread John!!
Don Verna
As FYI, instructions for loading handgun shot cartridges using the Starline 5 in 1 blank cases, which are useable in the .38-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, .45 Colt, as well as the old .44 XL Garden guns and the Marble's Game Getter.
https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharri...n%20a%2044.htm
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010093167
5 in 1 Revolver and Rifle Shot
Submitted 4 years ago
From West Virginia
Verified Buyer
The Starline 5 in 1 Blank cases work well to assemble handgun shotshells useable in the .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .38-40, .44-40 and .45 Colt revolvers. Powder charges must be kept mild due to the enlarged flash hole. I use 5 grains of Alliant Bullseye or 6 grains of WST or 231 and a Winchester Large Pistol primer. A Buffalo Arms .45 card wad must be inserted over the powder charge, first inserting the card sideways with tweezers, pushing it about halfway into the case, before rotating it to bridge across the interior case wall and then aligning and pressing it down against the powder using a 3/8" dowel. Next a Federal 410SC shot cup is inserted firmly against the card, seated with the dowel and its protruding wad fingers trimmed off with a sharp knife. It is absolutely necessary to use the .45 card under the plastic shot cup because it is not of sufficient diameter to prevent powder from otherwise leaking around it, which will cause bloopers. Load about 1/3 oz. of fine shot not larger than 7-1/2, to maintain adequate pellet count, within 1/8" of the case mouth. Insert a .38 cal. Buffalo Arms card wad over the shot and then crimp the shell using either a .44 Long Shot, .45 ACP Shot or Lee .308 Winchester seating die which has been shortened by 1" and a blank RCBS sizer-lubricator top punch positioned and adjusted in the seating stem collar to hold the top card at the mid point of the die shoulder, while the case mouth is bumped against the shoulder to form a nice, professional looking crimp. Waterproof the shell by painting the top wad with clear urethane or varnish. These produce rabbit and grouse killing patterns patterns at 20 feet with No.8s and burn rattlers to "snakeburgers" at 15 feet. More effective than the Speer factory shot and useable in a variety of guns. I pack 20 of these in each vehicle or aircraft survival kit.
Photos:
5 in 1 Revolver and Rifle Shot - 25 foot pattern from Marlin 1894S .44 rifle
5 in 1 Revolver and Rifle Shot - 25 foot pattern from 5-1/2" Ruger .44 with No.8
Bottom Line Yes, I would recommend to a friend
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
I've had many, many encounters with bear on my property. I have cameras out on my land and each year I get literally hundreds of pictures of bear. Not all different bear, but some that seem to stay around...more or less. I've had them up on my porch many times, I've had them walk up to my ground blinds and tree stands. I've had them come into the yard and knock my grill over. Over the last thirty years I've walked into sows with cubs and I've had several large male boars walk up and seem to be asking for food (my idiot neighbor feeds them....they're his friends). In spite of all of that, the worst problem I ever had were three that simply wouldn't leave my proximity. They either wanted food from being fed, or they smelled it in my backpack. Hollering and waving my arms didn't do much other than have them run a short distance away and then come back. In each case, firing a few shots over their back sent them running away. Statistically, you are at about a hundred times more likely to be attacked by a dog than a bear. All that being said, it doesn't mean it can't happen if you spend enough time where they live....in the woods. I personally believe that any center fire handgun will be effective in deterring a black bear attack IF you can shoot the gun well enough under pressure. Here is the problem....very few people can shoot a handgun under pressure. I shot major competitions for years and even just shooting for a prize is enough to mess up a lot of fairly decent shooters. Just shooting for score in front of other shooters messes with the fine motor skills to shoot a handgun well. The truth is, the noise you make with the gun will probably do more to save your skin than the stopping power the gun has. Most people killed by bears that are carrying a handgun never even get the gun out of the holster. For walking around in black bear country carry what ever you're comfortable with. It's dogs and two legged critters you have the most to worry about. One more thought: why's everyone concerned about shooting snakes? In most places they're protected and if you're not stepping on them they just crawl away. I've seen rattle snakes and copperheads in the woods and I have yet to have one attack me. If you step on them it's already too late.
Many years ago I spent a lot of time trying to come up with a good way to get enough shot in handgun cases to pe practical for small game hunting, this was back in the days before Speer shot capsules were available, what worked out for me back them was making paper cylinders, cutting felt or leather over powder wads and then glueing a wad over the top of the cylinder to keep the shot in place. Unlike the modern plastic capsule these were a bit fragile, you could get 1/2 and ounce of shot in .44 or .45 and if you were close they would work on grouse, squirrels or rabbits.
The patterns were always better with shorter barrels, the long barrels tended to spin the "capsule" more and opened the pattern up with a big hole in the centre.
Some other cartridges, that I think are worth mentioning, are the .327 Magnum, that comes in a pretty small package and is not far behind the .357. I recall reading an article in one of the outdoor magazines, back in the fifties, about a "bounty hunter", some one who used to hunt mt. lions for the bounty. This fellows sidearm of choice was a broomhandle Mauser, with the shoulder stock and the "full auto" switch. The .30 Mauser (7.63 X 25) is a pretty potent round as is the Russian 7.62 X 25 for the Tokarev.
NSB
I have lots of bears here every year, and most of the time we get on just fine, but occasionally you have one that is a problem. Most of the time when I am out I have dogs with me, and they give me plenty of warning when there is a bear around. If I shoot a bear it is pretty much a last resort thing. We have one bear here that has been around for a number of years, he is getting to be a problem, I suspect that this is the bear that killed a range cow last summer, definitely a big black bear. This bear came out of a thicket and went after my dogs one morning in August when I was out making my rounds, I had him centred up in my sights and was taking up the slack in the trigger of my .45 when he turned and ran off. This same bear has caused some other problems in the area and he is on "the list" with the local federal game agent, if he shows up next summer, he probably will not get a "pass"..
One of the "problem" bears I have hanging around has three tags in his ears, all different colors. Every time they get trapped as a nuisance bear they get an ear tag. This guy has one more tag to go and then they will permanently take care of him. He isn't aggressive as much as he gets in your space and wants food. I think my neighbor has been feeding him too long and as they say, "a fed bear is a dead bear". You drive by my neighbors place and his yard is covered in slices of bread, apples, and other assorted goodies. The game warden says he's talked to the guy but he still does it. Also, a few years back the gas company was working on gas wells on my place and the guys working there started feeding several bears at lunch time. The gas guys finished and moved on but the bears are still here....with a lot less fear of humans. I don't shoot bear just because I don't like to eat them and I don't need a hide. One of my friends shot one the year before last and said he'd never to it again....it walked right up to him. Not really hunting at this point anymore. They're enough of a nuisance that I carry a handgun out of a bit of caution, but I doubt I'll ever need it. Still....once they get fed there can be a problem.
I have some really interesting stories about bears, one year I had a young female with a cub, it may have been her first, she was not a very big bear. I used to see her quite often, she would let me get quite close and I would talk to her, one time when we were having a chat, she laid down on the ground crossed her front paws and just stayed there listening to everything I had to say. I truly enjoy having them around, but do not trust them for a minute. I had one this year that was a real nuisance, he got into my little storage trailer where I keep my supplements for my horses, he had developed a taste for the most expensive stuff I had. I was getting a bit concerned that he was getting a little too familiar and did not like having a bear that close to my horses. I tried scaring him off a number of times, but he just kept coming back, this went of for the best part of two months. Then one evening just before dark he showed up again, the dogs went after him and he lead them a merry chase from one thicket to another, I have places here where the vegetation between the trees is over my head. When I caught up with the dogs they had the bear in a thicket about 75 yards from my house, at this point I felt that enough was enough. The light was failing, and it was a bit hard to get a good sight picture, I took a shot and the bear turned and ran off. I was not sure if I hit him or not, I did not have a light and was not inclined to go rooting around in the deep cover in the dark. At full light the next morning I went out and found the bear stone dead, about 20 yards from where I shot him. That was one round from my Ruger 9mm with a 125 grn. RNFP bullet over 4.6 gr. of Bulls Eye. I chronographed those and they average 1200 fps.
I live in western MT where there are mountain grizzlies. A young male was captured 20 miles from me on the golf course last summer. My wife and I go foraging for huckleberries, mushrooms, and other plants and hunt small game in the mountains while always being alert for bears. I always carry a Model 629 with handloaded 240 gr Oregon Trail bullets about 1,100 fps. I have real concerns about being able to take a follow up shot and have been looking at the 10mm, especially the Delta Elite. I shoot 6 rds every week from Apr - Oct with the mod 629 at 25 yds. I can keep all 6 shots inside the 10 ring, but I get to choose my timing to shoot. The video with the guy shooting at a bear target getting pulled by another fellow is not the same speed as a charging bear, so that is not real accurate data.
shtur
The bear target on a sled is not a good representation, a big bear can hit 30 mph in about three bounds, that sled target just gives one the idea that things can happen pretty quickly, and in reality faster than in the video.
The 10mm was on the decline in popularity until it was discovered by outdoorsmen, the energy levels are around those achieved with heavy handloads in the .357. The practical upper limit with the 10mm is 1200 fps with a 200 gr, bullet just a bit less than 650 ft/#. about the same energy level as your 1100 fps .44 load. Without a lot of practice it will always be easier to get subsequent shots on target with a semi auto, and the higher capacity is pretty attractive.
In the Paul Harrell videos he makes that point that perhaps there is not a lot of difference in effectiveness between the 10mm and the .45ACP. However his testing was all with commercial ammunition.
I lived in Alaska from the time I got out of the service in 1972 until I retired from the state and moved south in 1995, I never had a problem with a bear, the only bears I killed there were ones I was hunting. The odds of being attacked by a bear or pretty low but it does happen. Having something that works is good insurance, it follows the old saying it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Never fired a single action 10mm, only a Glock 20, so take the info for what it is: internet chatter among those who claim to have fired both single stack, alloy framed 10s and the polymer frame 10s claim the recoil impulse from the alloyed 10 to be much more pronounced than polymer framed 10. The other issue that steered me toward the G20 was the price and magazine capacity.Originally Posted by shtur
I purchased my G20 a bit before Springfield announced their XDM 10. I have experience with XDMs, and they are very accurate, good ergonomics, good sights. A nice package right out of the box, whereas the Glock immediately needs new sights. The chamber on the XDM I believe is tighter than that of the Glock. The added barrel length of the XDM also helps with velocity. Had I known, waited, read comparisons, I may have gone with the XDM.
After loading and testing several powders with XTP 200gr bullets for velocity and accuracy, I settled on Accurate #7. I found the Glock chamber to be very generous in dimension. Likely a throwback to military doctrine, but not so necessary for civilian use. As I creeped up in charge weight, the case bulges became apparent, even at below manufacturer pressure limits, and using Quickload. I decided to go with a KKM barrel, but requested it be 5" instead of 6. This isn't a hunting firearm, and the shorter barrel made for a more compact package "for me". No more bulges, tighter lock up, outstanding accuracy, and impressive increase in velocity. I chose a powder charge that got me close to 1200 fps, but safe. The recoil is more than manageable either one-handed or two.
I have no idea what the recoil of a 44 mag out of a revolver feels like; just hot 357s from a Ruger GP100. I have shot 357s through a J-frame Smith 5 shot, and that was a hand punisher.
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