Trail Guns

[John Van Gelder]

I live in the mountains and have interactions with lots of big predators, bears during the summer months and coyotes, wolves and Mt.Lions the rest of the year. I also have horses that I am quite fond of, and so have a pretty low tolerance of the afore mentioned predators in my pastures. Any time I leave my house I am armed. It much more convenient to carry a handgun of some sort than a rifle.

Over the 60+ years I have been a handgun hunter my choice of side arms has "evolved", the usual choices, .357, .44 magnum, and then in the late 70s the heavy loads in the Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt. I lived in Alaska for 22 years and the only bear I had to shoot I killed with a Series 70 Colt .45ACP .

This brings to mind just how much is enough for a trail gun. Most of the people who venture forth into the "wild" places do so only rarely and for a few days at a time, unlike those of us who live in the forest.

I believe that we have been conditioned to believe that bigger is better, which in reality may not be the case. Currently there are handguns that produce kinetic energy levels that approach those of many centrefire rifles. This comes at the expense of some pretty significant recoil and muzzle blast, that in real life instances may preclude any quick accurate follow up shots.

Handguns rank far below the effectiveness of rifles,but if that is all you have then shot placement and penetration is far more significant than kinetic energy and bullet diameter.

Here are some links to reference material.. http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/d...with-handguns/

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5UftzpLc2

What makes a good trail gun? Anything you are comfortable with, and that you shoot well. These days I find myself out on the trail, which is every day, carrying one of my 9mms loaded with upper end cast bullet loads.

The bottom line is that you do not need one of the "wrist breaker" magnums, any of the traditional self defence carry guns will suffice.

[Outpost75]

Great post and set-up of the topic. I keep going back to Keith's Sixguns Cartridges and Loads (1936) and the older I get it seems like the more it makes sense. Over the years I've fooled with hand busting magnums and high velocity varmint blasters, but I've come around to classic revolvers Elmer would have been familar with.

Here in West Virginia we've no predators big enough to eat'cha, so other than in the big game season my usual carry is a S&W .32-20 Hand Ejector, firing 105-grain lead flatnosed bullets at about 900 fps from a 4-inch barrel using 7.5 grains of #2400, 5 grains of AutoComp or 10 grains of IMR4227.

During the fall big game season I'll carry either a .44-40 loaded with 206-grain semi-wadcutters, or a .45 Colt revolver, loaded with 260-grain flatnosed cast bullets at velocities using Bullseye powder which approximate black powder velocity. In my 1905 Colt SA and 1920 New Service .44-40s I use Accurate 43-206H and 6 grains of Bullseye for about 900 fps in a 5-1/2" barrel. In my .45 Colt New Service I use the Accurate 45-264H bullet and 6.5 grains of Bullseye for 880 fps from its 5-1/2" barrel. Any of these loads give complete through and through penetration on deer, wild hogs or bear and with a head-hold will drop six shots out of six into an IPSC silhouette at 100 yards. If I am also carrying a rifle (.44-40 is legal deer gun here) I'll carry a revolver of the same caliber. But if working outdoors and not actively hunting, I'll usually carry the New Service M1909 in .45 Colt.

Old school parameters which stipulate any caliber which starts with a "4" throwing a half-ounce or so of lead at 900 fps still work. And in snake country, the larger calibers are lots more effective with shot loads than a .38 or .357

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Howdy John-- I live up in the Cascades outside of Chemult, OR, so am somewhat familiar with your circumstances when it comes to encountering big critters. Yours is one of those questions that is bound to garner various answers and opinions. True, there were a couple of bear attack incidents reported over the last couple of years that were successfully terminated by a 9mm. But...that wouldn't be my first choice. Or probably the second or third either.

I've got a 3 inch Mod. 29 S&W that is Magna-ported, and it is extremely unpleasant to shoot. The recoil is so bad that I don't know if I could get back on target for a second shot, as bears and cougars move pretty fast. So, although I bought it for exactly that purpose, I never carry it.

I've often wondered how a .45 ACP 1911 might fare against a bear, and I guess you had a successful outcome. It seems like a good choice, considering multiple fast repeat shots. What kind of ammo were you using? Hardball would be great for penetration, but not so good for expansion. JHP ammo might not achieve the penetration necessary to reach the vitals on a head-on bear shot, so that's why I never carry the 1911 into the woods, but remain tempted to do so.

What I'm carrying now is an 1873 clone, stainless, in .45 Colt. Big bullet backed by lots of push, but not uncontrollable. Maybe the best solution would be a 1911 in .45 L. Colt?

DG

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[John Van Gelder]

Outpost75

A great old cartridge, that should still be relevant in these times is the .32-20, with some careful shot placement that will will work for deer in a handgun. I once worked a homicide case where the weapon of "choice" was a Colt .32-20. In my estimation the best cartridge , (big bore) was the original loading of the .45 Colt, 40 gr. of black powder and a 255 gr, bullet produce just over 1000 fps.

Not much in North America that load would not work for. The only modern improvement for that load is the Keith 255 SWC and 10 gr of Unique.

A lot of water under the bridge since I started hand gun hunting, my favourite revolver cartridge is probably the .357, however I will not be selling any of my .44s or .45 Colts any time soon. I just started carrying the 9mm a couple of years ago and have had good success, shooting bears, I need a bit more time and experience before I make any definitive claims about that calibre. It is convenient, I have noted that in green red fir, a hard cast 9mm will penetrate considerably more than a hard cast .45.

[John Van Gelder]

Der Gebirgsjager

If you look at my last response.. I am a big fan of the .45 colt. In the platform you are using, the 1873 Colt copy, very good result can be had by using a 255 gr. SWC over 10 gr. of Unique, this is an old time favourite load for the .45 Colt.

The first handgun bear I shot in Alaska, was with a Series 70 Colt .45ACP, the bullet I used was a hard cast 240 gr. Keith SWC over 6 gr. of Unique. I shot the bear (a small black bear) in the he head and when we boiled out the skull it was completely shattered. I also found the base of the bullet, it had separated right at the grease ring, the front went on through the skull and was not recovered.

For defence against predators I would recommend solid cast bullets, in this case penetration is key.

[Outpost75]

Of late I have also been fooling with the .38 Special in either one of the Rugers or a 1955 S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty.

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Enough more energy than the .32-20 to impart confidence on deer and larger varmints.

.38 Special +P and .38-44 Handloads

Ammunition________________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”

Factory Loads for Reference:

Old Super-X (1950s) 158-grain LRN .38-44____994 fps, 23 Sd
Winch. X38SPD ("FBI Load)158-gr. LHP+P____909 fps, 16 Sd

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400+P______922 fps,12 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P___________871 fps, 5 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P_________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P_____________914 fps, 22 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P________________888 fps, 21 Sd

[glaciers]

Well I used to go with the bigger is better like you, but, I got over it for the most part. Of course there are diffidently time and areas in Alaska where good penetration and heavy solids slugs are more comfortable. I used to work in Prince William Sound on the islands and carried a 458 x 2 American and a 44 mag, which was replaced by a 480 Ruger.
But where I live black bears, not browns are about it. So around here I go with a Ruger Security Six 4" in 357 with soft points, which carries easy and an easy pointing revolver. Behind the door is a 44 mag levergun. Either one will do what I need. 357 penetrates quite well, so I'm comfortable with it. Just can't warm up to guns with slides. Can't shoot them very well.

[MrWolf]

A few years before I moved here they killed a black bear around 450lbs at the base of my driveway or so I was told. I do have pics of a ma bear and her three cubs in one picture taken maybe 100 yards from my house. I picked up a SA 10mm just in case when I am in the woods I get between ma and her cubs. Just a slight upgrade from my normal carry of a S&W M&P 45c.

[John Van Gelder]

I see on the average of 10-12 different bears on and around my property every spring and summer. I have had to shoot a number of them that were just problems. I took one that was quartering away out of a thicket going up hill, the bear doped at the shot and rolled back into the thicket, things were a bit tense, and then the bear rolled out of the thicket, all but dead, a finishing shot ended the matter. That was with a Mod 28 the 170 gr, Keith bullet over 7 gr. of Unique in a .357 case. For all intents pretty much the same performance as the .38-44 loading.

[1Papalote]

I have no concern over wildlife predators in my part of Texas. When working in the pasture I carry a 44 special for targets of opportunity, ie; axis, or other exotics. When checking fences it an open sight Marlin or Winchester with a ruger single six on my belt.

1Papalote

[rushin4]

If the concern was for close-range self-defense, I'd use a double-stack 45 acp. Lighter than a big revolver, and the ability to put 2800 grains of lead into a bear in a hurry is a a plus.

[John Van Gelder]

I have had a lot of dealings with bears over the years, they are tough and unpredictable, a determined bear under the influence of adrenaline can soak up a lot of lead from large calibre rifles, before they go down. All of the handgun cartridges are pretty puny in comparison, with the exception of the super magnums, such as the .460 S&W the .500 and some of the others of that ilk. However a poor hit with big magnum is not as effective as a well placed shot with a .38 spl. Here are a couple of videos produced by some guys in Alaska that I found to be interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx-saB0HQtg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ODCQwmAvd0

[jonp]

I always find these discussions interesting. Near where I am now the only thing to be worried about are dogs and most any pistol would suffice for that I think. Up in New England the ones to think about are moose and black bear although I can't remember ever hearing of someone attacked by either and can't find any records of it happening but never say never. Coyotes are also around but most any centerfire pistol or even 22Mag would deal with those.

I usually carry a Blackhawk in either 357 or 45LC while hunting or in the spring when bear cubs are a possibility. Rest of the year I'm more likely to have my 22Mag. I am rethinking the Blackhawk, however. It seems to me that in case of an attack by a moose or bear volume with a sufficient caliber would be much better as the adrenaline and a fast moving target would cause you to miss some shots. A double action like a Redhawk or other would be better than a single action and a semi better yet. The more I see the more I'm strongly leaning towards getting a 10MM either a Tanfaglio as I already have the frame so just need a new barrel or a different make.

[dverna]

Great thread!!!

I have black bears to deal with. There is a group that hunt with dogs and I have been on hunts as a "helper". I know two guys that have been attacked when they got too close to one that was on the ground, and they were pulling the dogs off. Even a black bear can mess you up fast. Our bears are not large...125-250 lbs...300+ is big one here.

Working on my property, I worry about getting between a sow and her cubs. Never had a bear challenge me. They want to get away. My carry gun is a Glock 9mm and I felt underpowered with it. Got a Glock 22 and the .40 gives a bit more power but it is about all I can handle...no way a want to carry a .44 Mag. with full power loads. My feelings were that more shots on target would be a good thing so John's comments are interesting. BTW, not suggesting the .40 is a good choice, but it is all I can handle well.

It is also interesting that John puts penetration high on priority of bullet performance. But, as stated above, the bears in my area are not large. A bear hanging after being skinned looks a lot like a human body and that got me to thinking using Gold Dots or Hyrda-shocks would be decent bullets. Just wondering what others think for defense on bears less than 300 lbs. using the 9mm or .40. I carry Gold Dots now. I would prefer to purchase bullets and not cast. I can cast with any alloy from range scrap to linotype if cast would be the best.

[John Van Gelder]

I have lots of bear stories, I get on well with the bears most of the time, the standard thought about concern over females with cubs is a bit misplaced. Most of my interactions are with females and cubs. The caveat here is no matter how many encounters with bears one has, you can not predictably count on their reactions. "Most" of the time if threatened the "mom" will run the cub up a tree and then she will stand guard at the base of the tree, and will probably not get far from the tree. Recent studies by biologists in pretty diversified areas of the US and Canada have indicated that the danger to humans comes from solitary older males black bears, there are documented instances of bears stalking humans as food.

On the calibre issue the 10mm has gotten a lot of "press" as being a good woods choice of late, I will include a video of a comparison of the 10mm and .45ACP use for that function.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gtTEEm1-1A

The very end of the video is the interesting part.

In Alaska probably as many hunters are attacked by moose as by bears, and in reality the most dangerous animals on the planet are the herbivores.

In my experience a good hard cast bullet is probably a better choice than any sort of expanding bullet. I can also say from experience that trying to reload a revolver while playing tag with an angry bear in a vine maple thicket, causes one to favour the high capacity semi auto.

[JoeJames]

Ruger 4 1/2" new model Blackhawk in 44 Special - 240 grain Speer swaged .430" swc's or Oregon Trail 240 grain .431" hard cast swc's on top of 6.8 grains of Unique. Carry it in a modified M3 shoulder holster.

[WFO2]

I alternate between my Glock 20 10mm and my Ruger Redhawk . No bears on my land in Texas . I do however get some good sized hogs.

[John Van Gelder]

The "Skeeter Skelton" .44 spl load is pretty hard to beat, a 250-255 gr. SWC over 7.5 gr. of Unique. In the .45Colt I like the RCBS 270SAA bullet in my alloy they are around 290 gr. I load those over 9.5 gr. of Unique in either my Blackhawk or my 5.5" Redhawk. I don't carry either of those guns often any more, the light weight high capacity semi auto is more convenient. My Remington RP45 is a 15+1 and weighs less full than my Redhawk empty.

I hunted wild pigs in the Northern Territory of Australia, bow hunted that is, a big boar can be tougher to stop than a bear.

[David LaPell]

I have a couple of trail guns these days that I carry. One is my Uberti .45 Schofield which I really love to shoot and is surprisingly accurate. Mine is the 5-inch Wells Fargo model, and I changed the thicker, fat factory grips with thinner cherry grips which helped out a lot.





The other is an early Vaquero in .45 Colt. It looks rough and I got it cheap, but it had an action job and it shoots as smooth as one could want a single action that wasn't an original Colt.





More often that not if I am out somewhere fishing I usually end up just carrying my old East German Police issue Makarov PM.



Once in a great while I do carry my old Smith & Wesson Safety Hammerless in .38 S & W simply because it's a joy to own, and shoots as good now as it did when it was made in 1905.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You've got some nice handguns, David. As for the Vaquero, it doesn't look that bad. I bought a couple of new ones "back when" and the so-called color case hardening on the frame didn't look too much better than yours does.