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Thread: Some helpful tips for those getting ready for the muzzleloader hunting seasons

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Some helpful tips for those getting ready for the muzzleloader hunting seasons

    I'd like to share some hard fought knowledge for those of you getting ready for hunting. I've been shooting my rifles all year, however, I've really cracked down this week. In the last 7 days, I've spent about 20 hours at the shooting range.

    The first thing I tested was the clean bore first shot. One day I went to the range with a jar of water, and some patches. Every single shot I took the barrel off, cleaned it like I always do, and dried it off by setting it on the truck dash with the heat running, then one oil patch followed by a dry patch before loading. This was painstaking, about 15-20 minutes per shot. I learned two things from this. #1 a clean bore shoots about 6"-8" off at 50 yards from a fouled bore. I already knew this. #2, my rifle shoots like absolute garbage with a clean bore. I've done this test on another rifle that shoots normally from a clean bore, it even groups to the same place. This rifle was different. Moral of the story, either hunt with a fouled bore, or 100% test your gun before hand. I find far more often than not that a clean bore is significantly off from a fouled bore.

    The next thing I tested was how to foul a bore besides just firing a round or two, which does work. What I discovered was it is far more important to lube with your bullet lube, than any fouling. This makes me suspect that it is the oil, and not the fouling that actually causes these problems. Since I was using Crisco for lube, I cleaned my TC Renegade, TC New Englander, and TC Scout pistol well, and ran a Crisco patch to protect. This is a short term solution only, say a few weeks tops. The first day I snapped two caps in each gun, ran one dry patch, and then loaded normally. In all three guns, the first shot was right in the center of the group, meaning they hit exactly to where a fouled bore did. I repeated this for a second day with the same results. Both days, six shots, those shots were pretty much in the dead center of the group too. I also tested a squib load, which was about 30 grains of powder, and a bit of patch to hold it in. This worked well too. The last thing I tested was a clean gun, but then oiled with my normal gun oil, CorrosionX. In this case the first rifle I snapped two caps, and that first shot went 7" wide. The second rifle I did a squib load, and it wasn't as bad, but still a good 5" off. The scout pistol I did nothing, as I had decided the oil was the problem, and it was the best at about 3" low. The guns then continued to hit to the sights after the fouling shot. All shooting was done at 50 yards. Come Saturday, I'll have clean bores, lubed with Crisco, and then snap two caps. I did not get time to try simply loading a clean bore lubed with Crisco without doing anything else.

    The next thing is a lot more debatable, however, it may help some in my shoes. I am talking about getting a patched round ball to shoot well in a TC rifle. The first gun isn't even a rifle, it's the scout pistol with a 1:20 twist barrel. This is my most accurate muzzleloader, I kid you not. The only limiting factor is me, and basic open sights. The load that shoots great in that is as follows. 60gr FFg Goex, two 1/8" dense felt wads, pillow ticking patch lubed with Crisco, .532" round ball cast of pure lead. This load groups an average of 3" at 50 yards, once in a while it will shoot a one hole group that makes your eyes pop. What boggles me about this gun, is that the barrel has some pitting. Often patches would end up torn or shredded, nothing seems to matter. This handgun shoots good no matter what. Pillow ticking was definitely the best shooting. Notice I am using two felt wads. With no wad, recovered patches have a big hole in the center. These still shoot quite well. With one felt wad it maybe a little better, but not much. Adding two felt wads 100% cures the problem, recovered patches are as good as new.

    The Renegade is the big one, as it is the crankiest rifle I have ever owned. Chances are good I'll be selling it. That said, I'll be hunting with it yet. I did manage to get it to shoot pretty well with conicals, although I far prefer shooting round ball. After months and months of testing I never could get it to shoot good with a PRB, but I did manage to get it where I trust it for hunting accuracy, meaning sub 4", out to 75 yards. That load is 80gr FFg Goex, one 1/8" felt wad, duck canvas patch cut from my Carhartt pants lubed with crisco, and a Hornady .520 (actual .522") ball. The felt wad doesn't help or hurt accuracy in the Renegade, I just like the idea of the powder barrier. The powder charge makes little difference, however 50 and 60 grains does not shoot as well. 70-100 all shoots about the same, at 120 grains it seems to open up again.

    I did not give the New Englander a fair try, however, it is more accurate than the Renegade. It too shoots good with the canvas patch and .522" ball. I never could get any gun with any load to group great at 100 yards and a PRB. Only with a conical. What was common across all guns was that the powder charge made next to no difference at 50 yards. Going forward, I believe I am going to do load work ups with a standard charge of say 70 grains of powder, and just change the ball, patch, and wadding. The patch and ball combo was far and away the biggest factor in accuracy. I tried 3 different lubes, and as far as accuracy goes, I could not measure any difference.

    Those of you fighting a 1:48 twist TC, try a canvas patch and .520" ball. I never would have guessed a thick patch and small ball was the way to go. Everyone I had ever talked to said thin patch and large ball was the key. It's not hard to load either. I need a ball starter, but it's no tighter than a .530 ball and pillow ticking. I still can't get my rifles to shoot great, but where they were shooting 4" at 50 yards, they now shoot 2". Between three ball sizes, and a handful of patch types, this was the ONLY combo that was good.

    One tip I have is those that cut patches at the muzzle. I had been thinking of ways I could quicken reloading in the field for hunting when I looked down. The shooting range is littered with "pre-cut" patches you just fired. I grabbed a handful and kept the best ones to keep in my shooting bag. That simplifies reloading quite a bit. I even shot them, and they do group right with the brand new patches.

    One more tip I have, I have tested all year. And that is for those who swab between shots, try shop towels, the kind that looks like paper towel. Maybe this is well known, but the blue shop towels you can buy anywhere work great for swabbing. All I do is tear off a piece about 1"x2", fold it in half, and use it. I lick it to wet it. I found this trick out when I ran out of T shirt one day, and was half way through cleaning a gun. The stuff tears easy, so I was surprised when I used them, and found it holds up great. Shop towels are dirt cheap, I don't reuse any patches. I make one pass, and throw them away. I have probably put 400 shots downrange swabbing with these, and never once had one come apart, or get lost down the bore. I still clean my guns with T shirt, as the shop towels do not hold up to much pumping.

    Hopefully this will help someone before the season. I'll be out shooting one more time Friday, then ideally the next time will be a single shot with the scout pistol on a deer.
    Last edited by megasupermagnum; 11-27-2019 at 09:04 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    So if you grease the gun with a lubed patch after cleaning and then run a dry patch, you avoid the first shot variance? Very interesting.
    When you care enough to send the very best, send an ounce of lead.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
    So if you grease the gun with a lubed patch after cleaning and then run a dry patch, you avoid the first shot variance? Very interesting.
    It has worked 6 times for me anyway. I'll be trying it again Friday in all three guns. Like I said, I doubt this will protect for long, but I think it would have to be better than a fouled bore. Those that have guns that are accurate well past 100 yards may find a different result.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master AntiqueSledMan's Avatar
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    After previous cleaning & lubing,
    I like to run an alcohol patch through to dry everything out,
    I still snap a few caps before loading.

    I should clarify, "after storage" I run an alcohol patch through.

    AntiqueSledMan.
    Last edited by AntiqueSledMan; 11-28-2019 at 06:49 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiqueSledMan View Post
    After previous cleaning & lubing,
    I like to run an alcohol patch through to dry everything out,
    I still snap a few caps before loading.

    AntiqueSledMan.
    I should mention that I did all the tests with the above mentioned loads with a patched round ball. I did try an alcohol patch, however, it was with a Lee REAL conical. It did not work in that instance. I've found the Lee REAL to be about the touchiest bullet there is. I did get it, along with an Accurate molds conical, and a store bought Maxi ball to all shoot 3"-4" at 100 yards.

    I just find the PRB to be a lot less touchy once you find the ideal patch and ball. After thinking about it, a conical does not really lube or scrape fouling when loading, contrary to many advertisements. This seems to make them very particular to a fouled barrel, and lube. PRB on the other hand basically leaves a clean bore and lubes at the same time.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I shot today, but only the Renegade and Scout pistol. Both were clean bore, lubed with crisco again. Again both shots fell well inside of the main group. I'm quite happy with this. The guns are again cleaned and lubed with crisco, and I'll be hunting in the morning.

  7. #7
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    I'm dragging this thread back from the dead to post some longer term observations. Since this time, I have switched from Crisco to real Mink oil from TOTW for my patch lube and gun oil (although it is more of a grease). Crisco makes a fantastic patch lube, but I found two short comings. The first is that I don't trust it for gun lube. It has a tiny bit of salt in it, and while fine in the short term, I'm not going to wipe it on, and leave it on a gun for months at a time. The second problem is that it dries and turns waxy over time. Lubed patches with Crisco are good for a month, maybe two, then they are junk. Mink oil on the other hand seems to be a longer term solution. Patches from months ago still seem ok. While I try and only lube what I need, sometimes I loose a strip in the shooting bag, only to be found much later. I've been using Mink oil for all lubing and rust protecting on all my muzzleloaders, and it does a surprisingly good job. As bizarre as it sounds, it may be even better than an modern gun oil for rust protection. Gun oil dries off, Mink oil is a grease that doesn't.

    Now onto the shooting. For whatever reason, I did not warm up to the New Englander, and sold it. I decided to keep the Renegade, and I am fairly happy with it now. I do wish that I had sent it off to Bob Hoyt from the beginning, it would have saved me much frustration, but I got the factory TC barrel to shoot to my liking regardless. I've spent my summer fine tuning the load for my Renegade, and it has not changed that much from what I was using last year. As of today, the most accurate load, subject to change, is 90gr Fg, two 1/8" felt wads, a .520" hand cast pure lead ball in a Carhartt patch lubed with Mink oil. Today I shot my second 3 1/2" 5 shot group at 100 yards, and I am very happy with that.

    I'll break down how I got here. The first is the big one, I dumped the Hornady .520" balls I had been using. Last year, accuracy was fantastic at 50 yards, usually around 1" to 1 1/2". It would quickly open to 3" or 4" at 75 yards, and by 100 yards, it was barely pie plate accurate. This did the job anyway, and I shot a doe whitetail with no problems. The first box of Hornady balls measured .522" on average, the second and third were right about .520". It wasn't until I weighted them that I though something was up, as they could vary in weight by several grains. It was then I finally broke down and bought the Lee .520" 6 cavity mold. This turned out to be a great decision. They drop about .522", and very consistent in weight. I believe the key factor is that I can now load sprue up, which any imperfection is in theory in a similar place. Imperfections in the Hornady balls could be in any direction, causing the random dispersion that got worse with range. I have also been weight sorting the cast balls for good measure, something I did not do with the Hornady's. This one simple change cut my groups approximately in half. Suddenly I was consistently shooting 5" at 100 yards.

    The next change was the powder. I had been shooting FFg for the most part, Goex red can and OE, and also tried FFFg OE. It wasn't until recently I decided to try Fg red can Goex, and it was a good thing I did. FFg I could tell had some fliers. There was always a core group, with one a little out. Fg eliminated this. Fouling in the barrel is unchanged, the only issue I have run into is that it seems to foul the flame channel over time. After maybe 15 shots, I'll start to notice the slightest bit of delay during firing. The best fix I've found is to take the nipple out, use an old brass brush down the barrel, and give it a couple turns to scrub inside the recessed breech plug. I then follow with my normal barrel swabbing. What I think is happening, is the TC breech plugs have a long recess, then a long flame channel to the nipple. I believe that crud is getting in the opening of that flame channel. When I take the nipple out, the nipple is clear. This may be a problem with my technique of swabbing the barrel pushing the fouling into that opening. Right now I am using a damp patch, followed by a dry patch. Since this is a hunting load, and not a target load, I have no problem with this minor inconvenience.

    I also began using two 1/8" felt wads. This doesn't improve the accuracy per se, but it helps me load more consistently. With just a PRB, it can be tricky to load with a consistent pressure on the powder, which I have found vital to consistent accuracy. With the felt wads, I put them in, and then ram those down on the powder. I get a very good feel for compressing the powder, and am more consistent. Then I simply slide the PRB right on the felt wads, no additional pressure needed.

    Now the last thing I am messing with is the powder charge. It's going to take more than a single group to prove it, but 90 grains has shot 3 1/2" twice at 100 yards, and 80 grains shot 4". Not a meaningful change, but worth knowing. I only had time for 3 shots at 100 grains, and those three went 3 3/4", so it may be a matter of powder charge being inconsequential.

    The big thing I've found is that now that my rifle is much more accurate, I've found that the clean bore shots as described in post #1, lubed with patch lube, do hit slightly outside the fouled group. Today the clean, cold bore shot fell about 3" up and left of the main group at 100 yards, and was similar last week. The thing I want to try next is adding lube between shots. Right now after a shot, I immediately run a damp patch, followed by a dry patch, to essentially clean the bore. My idea is to follow those with a couple passes with a lubed patch. We shall see.
    Last edited by megasupermagnum; 08-04-2020 at 08:49 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Hanshi's Avatar
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    All this is quite interesting and food for thought. I also use felt op wads for at least the first load of the day. And I can't swear it makes a difference but it makes me feel better, for some reason. I have yet to run into the problem of a flier from a clean bore not landing in the "fouled bore" group. My rifle's a flintlock, but I doubt that makes any difference. What might make a difference is the .012" rifling. The loads I use are fairly tight; a .440" or .445" ball and a .024" heavy canvas patch. TOW mink oil is my hunting lube and it is excellent.

    In this case the first shot from the clean barrel is followed by shots from a fouled bore; and they all land in the same group. At 100 yards I get 5-shot groups of from 3.5" to 4" which is as good as I can do with ANY rifle and open sights. This rifle has taken many a deer over the past 16 years with one taken at 75 yards. Rust protection is provided by "Barricade", which is not an "oil", per se, as it leaves a dry coating in the bore. The bore can still be swabbed but doesn't have to be in order to shoot small groups. I don't swab between shots; in fact I never swab no matter how many shots I fire at the range or in the woods. Accuracy is never affected, which leads me to suspect the difference is merely the type of load used. And I stopped using gun oil in the bore years ago; it may be problematic in some cases.
    Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Wow, that must be a heck of a combo to start. My Carhartt patches are from the duck cotton pants I wear. It is a canvas of similar thickness to yours. In my case, my bore is .540" and groove .551". The Carhartt canvas patch with a .520" ball is snug, but not the tightest combo I've tried. It does need a short starter, but it's nothing like when I was trying to force a .535" ball (.537" in reality) with pillow ticking. I would rather use a looser load, but none of them shoot good. Such is life, if my life depended on it, I could load without the short starter, but it wouldn't be fun. I'm sure I mentioned it, but far and away the biggest factor in accuracy in all my rifles and pistols has been the ball and patch combo. My scout pistol shoots great with a .530" ball and pillow ticking, and while it shoots a .520" with canvas well, it is too hard to load in that pistol. My Renegade will not shoot anything except the .520" and canvas patch. Everything else is a disaster. I have yet to see the oversize ball and thin patch combo shoot good in anything of mine. I did try bare ball, both the .535" and an oversized .562" with no luck. The .535" shoots bad, and the .562" is way to hard to start. I do have some .550" to try yet.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    For anyone who uses Crisco just buy Crisco (ALL VEGETABLE) as it contains ZERO SODIUM and lubes just like the regular !
    I use bear oil mix now but every one can get Crisco/Ed

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master pietro's Avatar
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    .

    While I'm a big fan of Crisco for my C&B revolvers, I've used T/C Bore Butter in my rifles for several decades - both as a boolit lube and for coating the bore after cleaning.

    I too have long found out that the first shot through the clean/lubed bore is true to the rifle's zero.

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  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master


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    The stuff I had been using was all vegetable Crisco brand, but if you taste it, it has a very mild butter/salty taste. It is so slight, I wouldn't worry about it, but I don't think it would ever be a good choice for long term rust protection. As for Bore Butter, I never could get that stuff to work. At 80 degrees it is water, at 60 degrees it is too hard, at 40 degrees... well good luck, you won't be getting it out of the tube without slashing it.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    megasuper,

    Thanks for a lot of careful research and typed data. I have a dozen flint and cap muzzleloaders and will take your data to my farm range in prep for our PA ML deer season. Again, thanks.

    Adam

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    The stuff I had been using was all vegetable Crisco brand, but if you taste it, it has a very mild butter/salty taste. It is so slight, I wouldn't worry about it, but I don't think it would ever be a good choice for long term rust protection. As for Bore Butter, I never could get that stuff to work. At 80 degrees it is water, at 60 degrees it is too hard, at 40 degrees... well good luck, you won't be getting it out of the tube without slashing it.
    I won"t worry either as stated on label (ZERO sodium) Ed

  15. #15
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    real bear oil is best for me- sold on that thanx to ed!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    I like the information. You tried one of the solutions I had never thought of!

    I wonder if it reduces the 'stickiness' of the fouling as well?

    That patent breech is a PITA. When getting ready to shoot for the day I take the nipple off and use a plastic syringe full of alcohol. Squirt it through there and then pop a couple of caps. I get between 5 and 15 shots without a delay.

    I also do not swab between shots. Most of the time I use paper patched bullets so I will try a really small amount of lube before the first shot.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    I like the information. You tried one of the solutions I had never thought of!

    I wonder if it reduces the 'stickiness' of the fouling as well?

    That patent breech is a PITA. When getting ready to shoot for the day I take the nipple off and use a plastic syringe full of alcohol. Squirt it through there and then pop a couple of caps. I get between 5 and 15 shots without a delay.

    I also do not swab between shots. Most of the time I use paper patched bullets so I will try a really small amount of lube before the first shot.
    Are you referring to the brush down the breech plug? A properly shaped for TC's fouling scraper would work too, I do not have one though. I never had much issue with the patent breech plug. This is the very first time I've had anything happen. Who knows, maybe it was just the day, or maybe I was doing something wrong? I have not had this problem in the past, and have shot as much as an entire pound of powder in one session before with no delays. Thankfully it is an easy fix for me. Another thought is that FFg and FFFg powders may be small enough to go down that flame channel, and get right under the nipple. Maybe Fg is so big that it is stuck in the breech plug. Just a thought.

    If anything I've written here is worth anything, and assuming the stars align, I'll be sending one of my cast balls through a bear in less than a month. Then I'll be using bear grease from then on.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    I like the information. You tried one of the solutions I had never thought of!

    I wonder if it reduces the 'stickiness' of the fouling as well?

    That patent breech is a PITA. When getting ready to shoot for the day I take the nipple off and use a plastic syringe full of alcohol. Squirt it through there and then pop a couple of caps. I get between 5 and 15 shots without a delay.

    I also do not swab between shots. Most of the time I use paper patched bullets so I will try a really small amount of lube before the first shot.
    Ive fired in excess of 100 shots with TC breached guns on many occasions without any misfires or ignition problems. Are you using a sub powder by chance? Is your wiping technique possibly pushing fouling into the breach?

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I only use Pyrodex. BP is not available around here and is banned by law here (NM has some funny thoughts about explosives due to a couple of criminal actions years ago).

    Yes, Pyrodex is part of the problem. I do not swab between shots. If I get a delay I clean the rifle and 'start over'.

    When cleaning I use a .32cal brush to clean out the breech area.

    My point was, for hunting, 5 shots is way more than adequate. I rarely shoot more than 10 shots in a session.

  20. #20
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    Very good points,I find my clean bore shot needs a little more powder then the others I start with 75grain and then back off to 70 with the PRB.keeps my first shot where it needs to be��
    I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check