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Thread: Weak Magazine Spring?

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub xrider472's Avatar
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    Weak Magazine Spring?

    Does this look like a weak magazine spring problem or possibly too heavy of a recoil spring or combination of both? Ruger SR1911. Factory magazine & springs. Lee 200g rnfp. 7.0g of Power Pistol. Chronograph shows about 965fps average velocity with shorter oal. Have tried overall lengths of 1.150" and 1.100" Same issue with either length.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Very good pictures of a three point jam. Does this occur on the last round in the magazine as well as the first? The magazine spring pressure is somewhat lower when the last round is being fed than when the first round is feeding.

    The overall length seem to be on the low side. Are you seating far enough out that you can crimp into the boolet crimp groove? What is the diameter of the crimp? .472, .470, .468 or some other number? My guns like a little bit of lead ahead of the cartridge mouth so the lead is what hits the feed ramp. Insufficient crimp could allow the round to hang up on either the barrel or frame feed ramp as it is being chambered.

    If you hand feed a round does the head of the case come up behind the extractor? If it doesn't try a magazine that has a different release point. If it does, look at a 16 pound spring and see what that does.

    Have you been able to try any different boolet (or bullet) profiles? Did any of them feed reliably?
    Some times it's the pot,
    Some times it's the pan,
    It might even be the skillet,
    But, most of the time, it's the cook.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I had the same problem with a P-14 using a H&G 68 bullet, I replaced the magazine springs with Wolf extra power springs and now the gun runs 100%. Using a overall length of 1.150 could add to the problem, my H&G 68 is seated to 1.250".

  4. #4
    Boolit Master knifemaker's Avatar
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    If you suspect it is a magazine problem, the best way to cure that problem is to switch to Chip McCormack 8 round Shooting Star magazines. Those were the mags I used for shooting IDPA matches and for my LEO duty mags. They have a reputation for good feeding on 1911s that can be a problem with other mags. I would try the 1.250 COL first in case it is ammo related.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master
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    One of the three criteria for a three point jam is missing.
    That is not a three point jam as the base of the case missed the breechface.

    Getting the cart ahead of the horse. If the gun feeds factory ball properly it is not a recoil or magazine spring issue. It is an incorrect overall length issue.

    1911s loathe short OAL rounds. Yours are very short, too short on my opinion. This bullet was not intended for 1911s and expecting it to feed improperly short rounds is more due to misunderstanding the firearm being the failure point. Generally speaking 1911s prefer OALs to approximate or exceed 1.2” or longer. Ball is about 1.265.”

    Short rounds have an excessively low frame ramp strike, too steep a climb to the chamber, and often miss sliding under the extractor.

    1911 101:

    Don’t load whatever you feel like loading. Load what the gun will feed. The gun always wins and if you give it what it wants it works. If you don’t....it won’t. Simple as that.

    Try factory ball. If it works you know what the problem is.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Three point jam criteria:

    Base of case against bottom edge of breechface. Lower middle/front of case against barrel ramp. Bullet nose at or very near chamber roof. These three areas are why it is called a three point. The breechface contact is missing in this example. This is closer to a live round stovepipe. Short OAL needs to be investigated first as this requires no changes and is the most obvious thing to check.

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub
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    I never could get that one to feed in an officers model or a SA XDS. I switched to this one http://arsenalmolds.com/products?pro...=212&limit=100 and found it 100% in both guns.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Fenderman is showing the way..if a bullet don’t feed, it’s probably the bullet. Better to switch than fight as you will just end up losing in more ways than one.

    I could bore you with an exact list of why short rounds feed poorly. Suffice to say they completely compromise how a 1911 is intended to work. The shorter the round the more likely the malfunction. A constantly jamming pistol is annoying.

  9. #9
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    Texas by God's Avatar
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    That bullet is meant for revolvers and lever action rifles. A TC shape is called for if you want flat nose performance in a .45 auto.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    One of the three criteria for a three point jam is missing.
    That is not a three point jam as the base of the case missed the breechface.

    Getting the cart ahead of the horse. If the gun feeds factory ball properly it is not a recoil or magazine spring issue. It is an incorrect overall length issue.

    1911s loathe short OAL rounds. Yours are very short, too short on my opinion. This bullet was not intended for 1911s and expecting it to feed improperly short rounds is more due to misunderstanding the firearm being the failure point. Generally speaking 1911s prefer OALs to approximate or exceed 1.2” or longer. Ball is about 1.265.”

    Short rounds have an excessively low frame ramp strike, too steep a climb to the chamber, and often miss sliding under the extractor.

    1911 101:

    Don’t load whatever you feel like loading. Load what the gun will feed. The gun always wins and if you give it what it wants it works. If you don’t....it won’t. Simple as that.

    Try factory ball. If it works you know what the problem is.
    Exactly!

    Good analysis and explanation of a classic issue. Thanks!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Boogieman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    One of the three criteria for a three point jam is missing.
    That is not a three point jam as the base of the case missed the breechface.

    Getting the cart ahead of the horse. If the gun feeds factory ball properly it is not a recoil or magazine spring issue. It is an incorrect overall length issue.

    1911s loathe short OAL rounds. Yours are very short, too short on my opinion. This bullet was not intended for 1911s and expecting it to feed improperly short rounds is more due to misunderstanding the firearm being the failure point. Generally speaking 1911s prefer OALs to approximate or exceed 1.2” or longer. Ball is about 1.265.”

    Short rounds have an excessively low frame ramp strike, too steep a climb to the chamber, and often miss sliding under the extractor.

    1911 101:

    Don’t load whatever you feel like loading. Load what the gun will feed. The gun always wins and if you give it what it wants it works. If you don’t....it won’t. Simple as that.

    Try factory ball. If it works you know what the problem is.
    Read and reread this until you understand it. It will save a lot of time and trouble.
    The 3 people a man must be able to trust completely are his gunsmith his doctor & his preacher ..,his gunsmith for his short term health ,his doctor for long term health ,and his preacher incase one of the others mess up.

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub xrider472's Avatar
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    First of all, thanks for all the replies. The reason for the short oal's is not being able to pass the plunk test with longer lengths. I knew it was probably too short, but thought I'd give it a shot. I guess I need to send the barrel to dougguy to be throated properly. This is the only boolit I've tried so far in this gun, but I have the Lee 230g TC traditional lube groove and the NOE 230 RN. Just didn't have any of those cast up right now to try.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Does factory ammo work?

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub xrider472's Avatar
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    I don't think I've shot any factory ammo since I started handloading & casting in 2009. Lol. I'll try these next. NOE 230g RN at 1.230" & .470" crimp & 5.5g of hp-38. One change at a time.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Is that the longest OAL that will fit? If the ogive is correct ball duplication is found at 1.265” but that is in the range of what should work. In 1911’s and using tapered lip magazines as close to original spec the better.

    One of the things to know when loading for 1911s is the standardized lengths for the various bullet types. This helps assure functioning.
    Last edited by 35remington; 11-28-2019 at 07:42 PM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Bub xrider472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Is that the longest OAL that will fit? If the ogive is correct ball duplication is found at 1.265” but that is in the range of what should work. In 1911’s and using tapered lip magazines as close to original spec the better.

    One of the things to know when loading for 1911s is the standardized lengths for the various bullet types. This helps assure functioning.
    I'll make a dummy round starting at 1.275" & work my way shorter to verify. These were some loads I had that worked well in a different 1911. I also have a couple of checkmate mags with the tapered lips you're referring to. The feeding problem with the rnfp Lee Boolit I referenced in my original post was even worse when I tried the original style tapered lips magazines. Thanks for the info. Now, if it would quit raining....

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Tapered lip magazines are the original type or similar to the type specified by the designer of the 1911. We all know who that was.

    The gun is most reliable when his design for magazines is used as well as ammo similar to that the gun feeds best. Expecting short ammo to run through those magazines will not work. This is absolutely not a magazine problem, but rather a poorly adapted ammo problem.

    Try the ammo above loaded to 1.265” and see if it fits. If it does this is the most reliable configuration as it is exactly what the gun was designed to feed using magazines best adapted to feed it.

    Tapered lip magazines make the ammo approach the chamber at a less steep angle than any other type making for more reliable feeding. An important component that goes hand in hand with that is correct ammo overall length.

    Short ammo is inherently less reliable than correct length ammo no matter what magazine is used.
    Last edited by 35remington; 11-29-2019 at 03:13 AM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Bub xrider472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Tapered lip magazines are the original type or similar to the type specified by the designer of the 1911. We all know who that was.

    The gun is most reliable when his design for magazines is used as well as ammo similar to that the gun feeds best. Expecting short ammo to run through those magazines will not work. This is absolutely not a magazine problem, but rather a poorly adapted ammo problem.

    Try the ammo above loaded to 1.265” and see if it fits. If it does this is the most reliable configuration as it is exactly what the gun was designed to feed using magazines best adapted to feed it.

    Tapered lip magazines make the ammo approach the chamber at a less steep angle than any other type making for more reliable feeding. An important component that goes hand in hand with that is correct ammo overall length.

    Short ammo is inherently less reliable than correct length ammo no matter what magazine is used.
    Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated. I think I'm going to need to get the barrel throated for those proper overall lengths. Probably send it to dougguy after the weekend. As for current configuration, on the NOE 230g RN, 1.245" is what it takes to pass the plunk test. As for the Lee 230g TC, 1.180". Lyman #4 cast book shows 1.170" for that boolit, but throating job should allow for longer length.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Correct for 230 TC is 1.200-1.220. Lyman suggestion is incorrect.

    For HP that have ball ogive curvature about 1.200-1.210.”

    HG 68 clones around 1.250”

    Ball with correct 2 radius ogive 1.265.”

    These dimensions make a 1911 happy.

    Short nose SWC are nonstandard, and often necessitate earlier magazine release timing which compromises reliability. Deeper frame ramps and extractor hook radiusing all were an attempt to make 1911s run with short ammo it was never intended to run with. Even after modifications are done the gun is still more likely to run with correct ammo over too short ammo.

    Right cartridge length, right magazines, curve in the ogive, and on cast bullets a radius on the edge of flat point bullets where the meplat meets the ogive is all beneficial. If you are loading ammo load for these parameters and the gun is more likely to work.

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub xrider472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Correct for 230 TC is 1.200-1.220. Lyman suggestion is incorrect.

    For HP that have ball ogive curvature about 1.200-1.210.”

    HG 68 clones around 1.250”

    Ball with correct 2 radius ogive 1.265.”

    These dimensions make a 1911 happy.

    Short nose SWC are nonstandard, and often necessitate earlier magazine release timing which compromises reliability. Deeper frame ramps and extractor hook radiusing all were an attempt to make 1911s run with short ammo it was never intended to run with. Even after modifications are done the gun is still more likely to run with correct ammo over too short ammo.

    Right cartridge length, right magazines, curve in the ogive, and on cast bullets a radius on the edge of flat point bullets where the meplat meets the ogive is all beneficial. If you are loading ammo load for these parameters and the gun is more likely to work.
    Thanks so much for the information. I now have these numbers written down in my 45 Auto notebook.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check