Balloon head brass

[Beerd]

Does anyone know when these went out of style in center file cartridges?
Did they transition into the use of smokeless powder?
I ask 'cause at variuous times I have found 38WCF and 44-40 brass while in the mountains and am curious to know how old they might be.
Thanks.
..

[KCSO]

They were made by Peters up to the 1950's for sure as I have a box of baloon head 45-70's. Yes they were loaded with smokless too. In the 1960's I would still get a box of baloon head 45-70's occasionaly as old stock from various hardware stores and when High's Hardware sold out in 1992 they pulled up boxes of this stuff still packed away downstairs and marked at 50 cents a box. The headstamp might be a better indicator, that would be up to a ctg collector. For example if I find a WTC headstamp I know when Western Tool and Copper sold out and that is the clue.

[DEVERS454]

From what I know, all the bhb production stopped in the 1950s after or about the time the Ruger Blackhawks were introduced. (not directly related, but, the timeframe is similar)

I THINK I recall hearing that it was due to 2 things happening at the same time:
1) The introduction of the 44 (and the problems with the 357) magnum cartridges made balloon head brass difficult (impossible?) to adapt to those pressures.
2) The time to produce bhb was longer than the solid head design with the newer equipment. Winchester had since switched all production over to modern tooling by then.

It was either norma or bell who made a last run of 45 basic with balloon heads, if I remember correctly. I have no way of confirming this.

check the black powder boards on yahoo or bpcr.net and see what those folks know.

[w30wcf]

Beerd,

The 1950's sounds about right. What are the headstamps? Examples: W.R.A. CO., W.R.A., UMC, Rem-Umc, etc.

w30wcf

[Beerd]

Would have posted sooner, but am having a heck of a time getting logged in.

One headstamp is UMC 44-40
The other is WRA Co 38WCF

Like I said, I'm just curious about this ballon head thing, I don't think these two are extremely old because of their condition when found.

Thanks.
..

[w30wcf]

Beerd,

The UMC headstamp was replaced by Rem-Umc around 1911 so your UMC .44-40 is almost 100 years old.

The WRA CO headstamp was changed to WRA around 1930.

Cartridges stored correctly will look pretty much new for a very long period of time.
I have a box of .30 W.C.F. cartridges that were manufactured before 1900 and were stored properly when I purchased them about 10 years ago. They look like they were recently manufactured.

w30wcf

[Bad Flynch]

I have nickel plated Remington cases from the 1950s. These are best described by Phil Sharpe's description of semi-balloon head cases. True balloon head or folded-head cases disappeared a long time before that and I cannot say when. The decade of the 1950s already stated is probably correct for the demise of the semi-balloon head cases.

These cases are .45 Colt and have no extractor groove--that is the way they formerly built .45 Colt cases. The cases are swaged brass, not of true folded head design, but still have a lot more room in the head than current solid head designs.

You might try differentiating as to which type, balloon or semi-balloon head, cases they are as that will make a difference in the age.

[w30wcf]

Bad Flynch,

Good point on the folded head cases which I believe were discontinued by the early 1890's, if not before. The solid head balloon cases were sometimes referred to "Solid Head Button Pocket". UMC was headstamping their cases with S H by at least the mid 1890's.

By the early 1900's they dropped the S H nomenclature. All W.R.A. CO. headstamped cases I have examined were of the SHBP type.

w30wcf

[jerdog53]

Has any of you all ever loaded up Balloon head brass with Black and shot it? Is it true, which would make since that you can put more powder in these cases?

[45nut]

Top Row: Rim fire, inside primed, folded balloon head.
Bottom Row: Reinforced balloon head, solid balloon head, solid head

You can easily see the distinct internal capacity differences in that pic.
I have a few old balloon head 44 spls in my odd collection,,,the old cases are a bit old now and should not be used usually,,although there are some out there that do obviously as evidenced by the above posters. I had a old 38 case split wide open,it was quite brittle.

[Old Ironsights]

Someone once suggested that CBC (Magtech) .410 Brass hulls were Balloon. That is not the case.



Fed & Rem Slugs, CBC .410, .444 Rem. Note that the CBC .410 web is only slightly less beefy than the .444.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've loaded a fair number of semi-balloon head "solid head" cases with black powder. These were .44-40 and .45-70. I guess they hold more powder than the modern solid web cases, but the issue is pretty academic, as the density of black powder seems to vary a fair bit. I used to be able to get 70 grains of Elephant powder into the modern .45-70 cases with little trouble, although the rifle was more accurate with 60 grains or so. Other powders, such as Goex, were much less dense. I load for accuracy, rather than any extra power.

I dissected some old WRA semiballoon-head small-primer .44-40 ammunition once. Charge was slightly over 42 grains of black powder with a wax disc under a ~198 grain bullet of 0.425"-0.427" diameter.

The semiballoon head cases seem to swell at the base more than modern ones, but the .45-70's have held up very well. The .44-40's are so fragile around the mouths that I lose them from splits and crushes way before any trouble occurs at the bases.

[NickSS]

I had some 45 Colt balloon headed extruded brass cases several years ago. I loaded them a lot of times with standard 45 colt loads to shoot in my Model 25 S&W. They worked fine. A standard 45 Colt case as made today will hold around 35 gr of black and a 255 gr bullet. The original balloon headed cases were originally loaded with 40 gr of black but were quickly reduced to 35 gr because of excessive recoil. When the army adopted to Schofield revolver made by S&W in the late 1870s they made the schofield rounds with a 230 gr slug and 28 gr of powder. Sometime in the 1880s the army quite loading and bying 45 Colt rounds and used the schofield round in all their 45s till they went out of use in the 1890s only to be brought back in the early 1900s as the 38 colt would not stop a charging drugged up Morro during the fighting in the Philipines.

[0verkill]

Someone once suggested that CBC (Magtech) .410 Brass hulls were Balloon. That is not the case.

I have some cases I bought about 4 or 5 years ago and they are baloon head or semi baloon head, I can look down them and see the "hump" where the primer pocket sticks up. When did you get your cases, are they newer or older?

[KCSO]

Depending on headstamp between 1930 and 1950. I do not shoot ANY of these. The older mecuric primers tended to weaken the cases and when they let go they go right at the base of the case venting ALL the powder and gass back in your face. Fun stuff especially when you shoot a 73 Winchester!

[hydraulic]

I had the same experience as KCSO. I picked up a handful of .38-40 empties at a gun show, several of which were marked SH. I loaded them with black and after a couple of loadings the head would seperate from the case. This in an 1896 Colt Single Action.

[cajun shooter]

If you try Swiss which is much denser than Goex you will have a very full case on the 44-40. I have some of the old cases and W30wcf and I were talking about them. I filled one case with 46 grains of 2F. I would not try shooting the case with that much powder but it sure holds it.

[bigowl]

I was given 45, 405 winchester cases headstamped WRA 405 win. Anyone know when they stopped using the WRA stamp ?