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Thread: Cold Weather Effect on 1911 Reliability

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Cold Weather Effect on 1911 Reliability

    Check this out...

    { If nothing else, Check out the video below , or use this link to skip to it... https://youtu.be/aSsUYSd0k1Q }

    From Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing ( Source link is at the end of the article/page)

    --------------------------------

    Cold Weather Effect on 1911 Reliability

    Introduction

    In the interest of helping those who live in Arctic and Subarctic climates choose climate-appropriate lubricant for their self-defense and hunting firearms, we temperature conditioned a Remington R1 1911 down to -65°F while lubricated with one of four popular firearm lubricants. The Remington R1 (save being a ‘series 80’ configuration 1911) was chosen because of its dimensional similarities to the widely-available 1911 handgun. Low temperatures tend to cause oil to thicken and lose some of its lubricating properties. The temperature point of -65°F was chosen as it represents the reasonable worst-case scenario for the coldest locations on earth and is the low temperature specified in NATO STANAG 4090 (Edition 2).

    Ammunition performance also changes drastically in the face of extreme cold. Depending on the primer and the nitroglycerine content of the propellant used, chamber pressures can either drop or spike dangerously above SAAMI pressure limits. We went with the SIG Sauer 45 Auto V-Crown 200gr JHP load (E45AP1) after pressure testing many different manufacturers ammunition at -65°F on SAAMI conformal pressure equipment and finding that the SIG load offered the lowest pressure drop among the cartridges tested. In order to establish our baseline, the test firearm was cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner for 30 minutes and then heavily lubricated with the lubricant to be tested. The firearm was then shot with a fully-loaded magazine (7 cartridges) until the last shot was fired. This sequence of events was captured on slow motion video using a Phantom 711 high speed video camera.

    In evaluating a bivariate system (in this case the extreme cold effect on both the ammunition and the firearm/lubricant) it is essential to first evaluate the effect of each factor independently to determine their influence on the system results. Accordingly, after the test 1911 was shot in the clean/70°F temperature condition with Remington Rem Oil, it was ultrasonically cleaned, lubricated with Remington Rem Oil and shot at room temperature with SIG Sauer 45 Auto V-Crown 200gr JHP that had been temperature conditioned to -65°F.

    Performance in the context of this test is defined by the time required for the firearm to fully move the slide rearward and the time required for the firearm to fully move the slide forward. This time was measured by slow motion videography and the HSV cameras internal clock. The firearm and ammunition were conditioned for a minimum of 1 hour at -65°F prior to shooting. Both ammunition and gun were returned to a Thermotron temperature cell in the range after each shot and the temperature inside the unit allowed to return to -65°F before gun and ammunition were returned to firing position to continue testing.


    Results:

    Reliability


    Figure 1. Time for slide to travel fully rearward (70°F Gun and Ammunition)

    We see only slight variation between the lubricating performances of all four tested lubricants as the slide of the 1911 moves rearward.


    Figure 2. Time for slide to travel fully forward (70°F Gun and Ammunition)



    A greater degree of variation between lubricant performance is seen here but this can be partially explained by the greater degree of complexity of motion (cartridge case bearing on magazine lips, bullet friction with feed ramp and cartridge base interacting with the extractor claw) involved with this event.

    As mentioned above, this evaluation involves two variables: the effect of the cold temperature on the firearm/lubricant and the effect of the cold temperature on the ammunition. In order to isolate variables and provide the reader with a better framework within which to interpret these results, the 1911 was cleaned and heavily lubricated with Remington Rem Oil and kept at 70°F. The test ammunition was conditioned to -65°F for two hours in order to evaluate the effect of the cold temperature on the chamber pressure and commensurate rearward bolt thrust of the test ammunition.



    Figure 3. Reduction in rearward bolt thrust with conditioned ammunition

    There was a 5% increase in the time required for the 1911 slide to move fully rearward when the ammunition was conditioned to -65°F. This moderate reduction in chamber pressure is far favorable to a drastic spike in chamber pressure, which is common to propellant used in some defensive JHP ammunition. An interesting occurrence was the decrease in time required for the cold ammunition to chamber in the room temperature firearm. The casemouth diameter, rim diameter and overall length of (20) specimens of ammunition from the same ammunition lot were measured at 70°F and again at -65°F after a conditioning period of 1 hour. Any dimensional difference between cold-conditioned and ambient ammunition in this case is insignificant and lost in the statistical wash as can be seen in Table 1.


    The coefficient of dynamic friction is known to change with different materials at different temperatures. It is possible that the extreme cold condition increased the lubricity of the nickel plating of the tested ammunition and reduced the frictional force when the cartridge came into contact with the feed ramp and breech face/extractor claw, thus decreasing the time needed to chamber a cartridge.


    Figure 4. Increase in cyclic time with conditioned gun and ammunition

    It can be seen that Pro-Shot Zero Friction and Remington Rem Oil were the least effected by the extreme cold and that Break Free CLP and Outers Gun Oil were the most effected. The subsequent reductions in reliability can be seen in Figure 5 below.


    Figure 5. Percent reliability of system at -65°F and 70°F



    Of the (7) cartridges tested, the gun was able to fully cycle 100% of the time with the Remington Rem Oil and the Pro-Shot Zero Friction. While slide function was significantly slowed when all of the lubricants were in use, the slide failed to fully return to battery more frequently when lubricated with the Outers Gun Oil and Break Free CLP.


    Lock Time and Accuracy Effect

    Lock time is the time that elapses between the release of the hammer/striker (upon trigger pull) and the initiation of the primer by the firing pin. Understanding that the muzzle of a firearm held by a shooter is always moving through a ‘wobble zone’, it is desirable to reduce the lock time of a firearm as much as possible so as to minimize the difference between point of aim and point of impact. Having to defend oneself in extreme cold conditions presents challenges to performance not normally present during normal climatic conditions. The body enhances functions generally useful for survival and decreases less useful functions during a life-threatening situation. It is generally held that hit probability with a firearm decreases substantially during combat due to this stress. Reducing lock time is a desirable hardware solution that will reduce the deleterious effect of stress on hit probability.

    Tables 2A and B show the 1911's lock time using the least-affected lubricant and the most-affected lubricants: Remington Rem Oil and Break Free CLP respectively.



    There exists a 3% reduction in lock time at room temperature with CLP and a 10% increase in lock time with CLP at the -65°F condition.

    Mechanical Tolerances of Tested R1 Pistol versus 1911 Specifications

    As noted earlier, it was desired during the planning phase of the test to select a firearm that is monetarily accessible to the largest number of shooters and that was representative of a combat handgun in worldwide circulation. The 1911 fits this requirement. A new-condition firearm was sought to eliminate any issues of excessive wear that might skew results. As such, a new Remington R1 was purchased for this test. Table 3 details the key dimensionals of the R1 at the end of the test series.




    Table 3: 1911 Dimensions



    Off-hand Shooting and -25°F Alternative Testing





    It was desirable to evaluate whether the shooting of the test firearm from a Ransom rest provided reliability results that were not achievable by a human hand and shooter. We also sought to provide evidence of the skewing of the results due to the heavy-lubricated state of the firearm as it was initially tested (and recorded on high speed video). As such, the tested 1911 was lightly lubricated (per the users manual) with the tested lubricants and the -65°F system was shot by hand with the Pro-Shot Zero Friction and Remington Rem Oil an additional 29 cartridges each. This test was tried with the Outers Gun Oil but slow slide velocity and a continued lack of reliability prompted a halt to the testing at -65°F condition. The gun and ammunition were then conditioned to -25°F for one hour and the remaining ammunition of the tested lot was expended testing the firearm/lubricant system at this temperature, as illustrated in Table 4 below:

    Table 4: Off-hand Shooting, Light Lubrication and -25°F Condition


    When lubricated with Outers Gun Oil at -65°F, the slide of the weapon had to be driven into battery by hand prior to each shot. When warmed to -25°F, the first three cartridges dove into the feed ramp due to insufficient slide velocity – all subsequent shots cycled but the slide action was decreasingly sluggish as the weapon warmed.

    Conclusion




    Significant differences in firearm reliability can be encountered with different brands of firearms lubricant. A full-size 1911 was utilized for this test as it is considered to be a conventional semi-automatic handgun design with a successful track record in combat across 6 continents. Exposure to -65°F cold affected both the feed/function of the firearm as well as the lock time which is essential to accuracy. The two top performers, as tested, were Remington Rem Oil and Pro-Shot Zero Friction.

    It should be noted that all firearms were completely cleaned of lubricant and fouling prior to lubrication with a new test lubricant. The 1911 was then heavily lubricated on all surfaces except the bore and magazine to exacerbate any differences that may arise between lubricants. In practice, it is wise to only lightly lubricate the wear areas and points of rotation (hammer axis pin for example.) Practically speaking though, one cannot dictate the condition their gun will be in at the time of a shooting – especially in the case of a ‘found gun’ whose previous owner is no longer available to shoot the firearm. It would be wise to consider that your gun might not shoot at all or will function erratically at extreme cold conditions and to plan immediate actions to correct the problem. All failures to feed involved failures of the slide to go fully forward into battery, caused by a lack of slide velocity. Extreme weather and environmental fouling of a firearm generally cause a change to the function and safety of a firearm. Some parts are free to move while others do not properly engage or work at all. In all cases, it is essential that you think for yourself and test your equipment before you depend on it with your life.


    ----------------------

    Source: http://www.brassfetcher.com/Cold%20W...er%201911.html
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    i dont know, at -65 im not putting that pistol in my hand, gloves or not.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Very interesting. I wonder what effect some boolit lube would have....
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

  4. #4
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    Interesting.

    I remember in rifle classes back in the day, they said not to use any lubricants at all on weapons in extreme cold.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master


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    I can't fathom the idea that formulated the parameters for this test....lowest temp during the infamous Chosin Reservoir battle was 36 below 0, I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to pick a gunfight at -65F.
    An old Cherokee was teaching his grandson about life. "Inside me two wolves fight," he told the boy.
    "One is evil - he is anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity, resentment, lies, false pride, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, generosity, truth and faith. The same fight is inside you - and every other person, too."
    The grandson thought for a minute and asked,"Which wolf will win?"
    The old Cherokee replied, "The one you feed."

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    One question and or comment. What was the poundage of the recoil springs in each pistol. I run a 18.5# recoil spring and the pistol is lightly lubricated usually CLP. In some of the pics and videos there must have been an excess of lube on the barrel and it appears that some of the energy was being wasted overcoming the congealed lube on the barrel. Best advice at -65 remove all lubricant or use a dry lube. Frank

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyEllis View Post
    I can't fathom the idea that formulated the parameters for this test....lowest temp during the infamous Chosin Reservoir battle was 36 below 0, I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to pick a gunfight at -65F.
    I don't know why he/they did it either, but I just found it interesting, so I shared it here.


    -----------------
    Quote Originally Posted by samari46 View Post
    One question and or comment. What was the poundage of the recoil springs in each pistol. I run a 18.5# recoil spring and the pistol is lightly lubricated usually CLP. In some of the pics and videos there must have been an excess of lube on the barrel and it appears that some of the energy was being wasted overcoming the congealed lube on the barrel. Best advice at -65 remove all lubricant or use a dry lube. Frank
    I cannot answer your question, but I am curious as well what spring was used now that you mention it. I live in a pretty cold place during the Winter & rarely shoot when it is real cold, and while the only time we have had -65F , I think was from Wind chill & not actual temps. It does get well below zero here with actual temps & I am in a more Southern part of MN. North of me up towards Ely & Tower, MN., or International Falls,MN. up near the Canadian border, it gets a lot colder.

    If you would like to ask the person who did the tests & ask them questions, here is the persons email address & below is the rest of the contact info.:
    jervin@brassfetcher.com

    8530 Sanchez Road, Jacksonville, FL
    1 (904) 772 4241
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

    Restore the Republic!!!

    For the Fudds > "Those who appease a tiger, do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last." -Winston Churchill.

    President Reagan tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MwPgPK7WQ

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  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    My father worked on the Al-Can highway construction in the Army Corps of Engineers during World War II. He said once it gets below 40 below you can’t tell the difference in temperature

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks for posting JB , very interesting.
    Out of curiosity , I casually experiment with a lot of different lubes , but carry Pro-Shot in my range bag and it has been effective for me to get many balky guns running smooth again but most all seem to work in the nearly ideal environment I shoot in.
    Just my experience .

  10. #10
    Boolit Master knifemaker's Avatar
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    While hunting in Montana one winter in below freezing temps. I decided to shoot my 1911 while in camp after carrying it all day on my hip under my jacket. It had a light amount, and I mean light amount, of gun oil on the rails. Fired the gun and watched the slide go to the rear and back to the front in very slow motion. Did not fully chamber the round it picked up from the magazine. The temps were in the upper 20's that day.
    I will not use any oil or grease on a semi auto if I am going to be out in below freezing temps. If you need a lube on moving parts, use powdered graphite as cold temps does not effect it's performance. On my bolt action hunting rifles. If used in very cold temps, I remove all oil from the trigger group and the firing pin chamber in the bolt along with the firing pin and firing pin spring and use powdered graphite for a lube. I have seen too many bolt action rifles fail to fire in cold freezing temps due to oil or lube grease freezing up.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Lubricant Arctic Weather is your friend.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Knife maker, that must have been near soap as lubricant you were using given it was possible to run a 1911 at minus 65 using a suitable lubricant heavily applied. That’s ninety plus degrees colder than your puzzling failure.

    Maybe it was closer to glue, probably. Whatever it was it must be the worst stuff I’ve heard of. Upper twenties isn’t very cold at all.

    A 1911 is a worst case scenario given the long frame slide contact surfaces, but failure at the upper twenty degree range when lightly applied? Nominated here for world’s worst lubricant.

    There are lubricants of the oil based variety that will work to any sane hunting temp. Find the ones that do and ignore the rest under such conditions. If it is minus 65 I will stay home no matter what the gun is lubed with or even if it has none at all.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    I can't believe they didn't test with modern lubes, Like Slip 2000, fireclean, Militech.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    I'm thinking they were testing what most people pick up at the local wally world.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    Check this out...

    { If nothing else, Check out the video below , or use this link to skip to it... https://youtu.be/aSsUYSd0k1Q }

    From Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing ( Source link is at the end of the article/page)

    --------------------------------

    Cold Weather Effect on 1911 Reliability

    . . .
    One question on methodology: The phrase "heavily lubricated" is used frequently. What is this more specifically? My experience is that lubrication is to be used lightly. The farther from ideal weather and cleanly conditions a firearm is to be used, the more lightly is to be its lubrication. Weather, sand, mud, and other are part of the whole.

    I have not touched a 5.56 mm rifle of any kind since 1970. Despite my aversion to this class of firearm, I believe it remains the single small arm in America's armed forces that requires the most maintenance, and the best quality lubrication. Anticipating this class of American small arms is most problematic to lubricate and maintain, what is its lubricant? Why choose an almost certainly more reliable firearm for the extreme cold tests rather than a less inherently reliable one? Unless I'm missing something obvious, lubricant that keeps M16 descendants functioning will have zero difficulty doing the same with M1911s while the reverse may not be true.
    ***
    My baseline for testing all firearms I am able to own (or do own) legally — testing that I could reasonably do were I so inclined — is the War Office test series to replace Colt's 38 Colt revolver in 1907 and follow-up testing that resulted in adoption of the Model 1911 pistol. While these tests were not especially oriented for extreme cold operation, they covered pretty much everything thoroughly. Accompanying the controlled testing was at least one year of subsequent field testing, just to make sure nothing significant was overlooked. These are available for download.

    Just some thoughts.
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  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I typically use RIG on the high wear point. Big mistake when I went out shooting the other day in 20-25*F. Had some failures to lock back and failures to load and even a stovepipe or 2.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Naphtali,

    Here is the contact info I provided in post # 7 to get ahold of the folks who did the testing:

    If you would like to ask the person who did the tests & ask them questions, here is the persons email address & below is the rest of the contact info.:
    jervin@brassfetcher.com

    8530 Sanchez Road, Jacksonville, FL
    1 (904) 772 4241
    I cannot answer the questions regarding the testing criteria & such. I just saw the article & thought to share it here.
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

    Restore the Republic!!!

    For the Fudds > "Those who appease a tiger, do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last." -Winston Churchill.

    President Reagan tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MwPgPK7WQ

    Phil Robertson explains the Wall: https://youtu.be/f9d1Wof7S4o

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I keep my firearms lubed with a light coat of ATF, as well as there is sometimes Eds Red without any acetone if I have that instead of the ATF. I generally cleaned with Hoppes in the past, & Eds Red more now a days & when I am done I usually use some brake or carb cleaner to shoot out the dirty residue, then lube where needed, very lightly, year round.

    I do not shoot handguns often in cold temps, but have certainly used pump shotguns in well below zero weather, as well as muzzle loaders. I generally keep my firearms well lubed in the warmer month, but reduce the amount in colder no matter the platform. The reason I use ATF is that it is highly refined & seems to work decent even when it is cold out. At least the light coats I put on the working parts seemed to be OK for me.

    I have some buddies who have used Rem Oil in the past in the cold, but I don't recall if they had issues with their shotguns or not. One was using a Remington 1100, and the other was using a pump, but I do not remember the mnfr.. I think I will ask them the next time I see them how it worked for them in cold weather, as it seemed that in this test it worked fairly well.

    I am another who does/would not voluntarily go out in -65 F cold or windchill cold. It would have to be for a very damn good reason if I would have to do so.
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    ~~ WWG1WGA ~~

    Restore the Republic!!!

    For the Fudds > "Those who appease a tiger, do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last." -Winston Churchill.

    President Reagan tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MwPgPK7WQ

    Phil Robertson explains the Wall: https://youtu.be/f9d1Wof7S4o

  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by samari46 View Post
    One question and or comment. What was the poundage of the recoil springs in each pistol. I run a 18.5# recoil spring and the pistol is lightly lubricated usually CLP. In some of the pics and videos there must have been an excess of lube on the barrel and it appears that some of the energy was being wasted overcoming the congealed lube on the barrel. Best advice at -65 remove all lubricant or use a dry lube. Frank
    I've done some armchair head-scratching on that topic over the last few years.

    The GI standard spring is 16 pounds, but I've personally observed that the gun seems happier running with an 18.5 pounder under "sane" operating conditions.

    Just speculation on my part, but it seems to me that Colt and JMB, knowing that the gun was going to at least be subjected to sand, mud, and fouling tests (I don't think they had -65F deep-freezes in 1911), they might have run the slightly lighter spring so the gun could more easily power through the obstacles.

    When you get THAT extreme, you might start slide-ruling not only the lube and recoil spring, but also the mainspring and even the angle of the bottom end of the firing pin stop which times the re-cocking of the hammer - - that changed somwhere along the road from 1911 to 1911A1.
    WWJMBD?

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  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check