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Thread: Common and Uncommon Lyman 45 cal Rifle molds 2.0

  1. #1
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    Common and Uncommon Lyman 45 cal Rifle molds 2.0

    (I think this should have been posted here because it pertains to BPCR)
    I would invite anyone to post pictures and text in this thread on any 45 cal bullet mold in Ideal and Lyman's inventory. I find them really interesting.

    From early times Ideal and Lyman catalogs have listed some interesting molds. In the 45 caliber alone rifle molds who's numbers start with 456 and 457 show some really interesting designs. I have some of the more common ones and a few of the older and odd ones as well. I am not a collector exactly but I have accumulated some of the interesting ones as they presented themselves.

    Most of the old designs are from the black powder cartridge era.
    I thought I would post some just to see if there is interest in these.

    Here is one that is not that old but somewhat rare. It is a Paul Matthews design.
    The number is 457 676. On this mold the number is over-stamped and in more than one size making it look odd.The block number under the over-stamp is 429676. Lyman made three versions of this bullet/number and the design changed in each. This is the first of the three and is a nose-pour.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The target weight is 500 grains in 20/1
    As odd as this bullet looks, Brad Rice has used it to win as many as five or six NRA 500 meter Silhouette National Championships with it. He laughs and calls it the Magic Bullet.
    Steve Brooks, the custom mold maker, was so impressed with the way brad shot it, Steve put a copy in his 45 rifle mold line up.
    It has reduced bands (tapered in other words) and only 0.400" from the base up are 0.459 in diameter.
    I will try to get more mold examples posted as time permits.
    Feel free to do so too.
    Chill Wills

  2. #2
    Vendor Sponsor MOA's Avatar
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    Here is the only Ideal BPCR mold type I have. My others are more modern marked made by Lyman.

    The classic 457-125 500 grain round nose plain base.



    45-120 3-1/4" with a 535gr Postell Lyman 457-132
    Last edited by MOA; 11-17-2019 at 01:26 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Here you go http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm Pope made a lot of moulds fir the Ideal.

    Or you can do a search here for any of the old books and manuals.

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/ls?...=srchls;lmt=ft

    Kurt
    Last edited by Lead pot; 11-17-2019 at 05:36 PM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I would invite anyone to post pictures and text in this thread on any 45 cal bullet mold in Ideal and Lyman's inventory.

    http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_..._Calibre_Sharp

    http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_...ml#45_452_mold

    http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_...ml#45_454_mold

    http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_...457_45_Calibre

    That's about all of them ... I have 23 Lyman/Ideal 45's in inventory
    Regards
    John

  5. #5
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    Hey MOA, good to hear from you! That pointy 45-120 bullet, if a Lyman, is likely the 457-658 also know as a 457658 Schmitzer.
    The 457-125 and 457-132 Postell are classic. In the old Ideal blocks the bore ride noses on these two designs were about 0.432" and rattled down the bore. The thinking then was, the bullets were to be shot in dirty crusted bores and needed the room to clear the fowling.
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 11-17-2019 at 08:53 PM.
    Chill Wills

  6. #6
    Vendor Sponsor MOA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    Hey MOA, good to hear from you! That pointy 45-120 bullet, if a Lyman, is likely the 457-658 also know as a 457658 Schmitzer.
    The 457-125 and 457-132 Postell are classic. In the old Ideal blocks the bore ride noses on these two designs were about 0.432" and rattled down the bore. The thinking then was, the bullets were to be shot in dirty crusted bores and needed the room to clear the fowling.

    I think you are correct on the Lyman number. I've got about 34 or so and I just got done packing all of them up along with all my stuff to get ready for our move back out to Arizona in the coming Spring, so I was trying to remember from memory which one I had been putting in that cartridge lately. I think the 132 was more round nosed, so your memory is better than mine. Good to hear from you too.

  7. #7
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    Here is a less common 457-102. It is a flat nosed gas check bullet weighing about 455 grains with check in place. With the addition of the gas check and added length to put the check on, it looks like there is very little difference between it and the common 457-193. The lube grooves are in the same location from the base and the nose profile looks to be the same as well.

    Gas check bullets in general are equipped for higher pressure/velocity. The intended use or market for this bullet must be narrow. I would guess at the power level of maybe above 1500 FPS where a gas check might be needed, huge game like moose or big bear would be the target. The kind of smokeless load in a lever rifle or old single shot designed for black powder would need to be crafted with care. Black powder alone could not produce this level of velocity with a 450gr class bullet, so a GC would not be needed.

    One of the earlier Lyman cast bullet handbooks shows smokeless powder loads for the bullet.
    Below is an image.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Chill Wills

  8. #8
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    The Old Ideal 456-125 and 457-125 mold answered the need to produce a copy of the Gov arsenal 1881 bullet used in the Springfield 1873* and later 1884 rifles. There are a lot of detaisl I am skipping over but that is the short story. If interested, there are a few books on the subject that can fill in how and why the army settled on this design.
    *The earlier model rifles and carbine sights were all regulated to the 405grn bullet which preceded the 1881 500grn design.
    I don’t want to write too much about the whole Springfield bullet story but rather just focus on the ideal and then Lyman mold offerings. The 1881 arsenal bullet was a three-groove design and Ideal modified their mold to be a four-groove design and slightly changed the round nose to have a subtle nose taper before the very round front. The government bullet simply used a half hemisphere for a nose.
    Early Ideal molds were smaller in diameter both on the driving bands and especially the bore ride nose. Accuracy is harder to come by using bullets from this early design. Later molds found in Lyman blocks currently made are better with larger 0.458 or even 0.459” driving bands and much closer to bore diameter 0.448” noses.
    These comments will be true as well for the sibling bullet the 457-132 Postell.
    I will add a few additional pictures of 457-125 to this post as I can but this first one is the basic early design.Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Chill Wills; 11-21-2019 at 11:34 AM.
    Chill Wills

  9. #9
    Vendor Sponsor MOA's Avatar
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    Chill, here's a few images of my 457-125 Ideal mold.







    And this is another Postell I cast also.



  10. #10
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    Ideal Postall

    Nice.
    Here is my Ideal Postell 457-132 mold. Great mold but very small diameter bore-ride section and because of that lack of support, not at all accurate like the new Lyman offering. (assuming you get a round one)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Chill Wills

  11. #11
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    I have a Lyman 451112 385-gr “Sharps-Bailey” boolit mould. The boolit sort of works in my Peabody .43 Spanish rifle, and I plan to try it in my Volunteer muzzleloading rifle.

    I also have a Lyman 454617GP mould which, I presume, is for their Great Plains muzzleloading rifle. Haven’t seen it in any catalogs, that I can recall. It casts at around 300 grains, and works as a heavy boolit Keith-type load (with suitably reduced powder charge) in the .45 Colt. It’s the only specimen I’ve ever seen, and the rifles are almost as rare. 99% of the Great Plains rifles I see for sale at Gun Shows are .50 or .54 caliber.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod View Post
    I have a Lyman 451112 385-gr “Sharps-Bailey” boolit mould. The boolit sort of works in my Peabody .43 Spanish rifle, and I plan to try it in my Volunteer muzzleloading rifle.
    That's interesting. I only gave those long 451... bullet molds in the Ideal lineup passing notice. I think, or thought there was some application to the British small bore ML rifles (in GG form) but with the choice of very light to heavy (275g, 325g, 380g, 430g, 485g ) in the 451112 mold, I never really knew what the intention was.

    ******************
    RE: post #10
    There is a story of the design/creation of the Postell bullet around somewhere. I know I have read it a few times and in a few places. It would be good to post it. One reference that has some info on it is the old Ideal handbook #15, which I don't have access to. In short, the Postell bullet was a modification and intended as an improvement of the Gov. 1881 (457-125) for target shooting with Springfield rifles. If I can find the history, or someone can, it can be posted.
    Chill Wills

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check