Question about bag vs possession limits

[Petrol & Powder]

Petrol and Powder, I don't like your tone.

I started this thread to ask a simple question. I expressed an opinion that I thought the possession limit seemed small give what a daily bag limit was, considering the length of the season. Just because I expressed that opinion, I am NOT implying that I feel I have the right to exceed any limits set by law. Quite the contrary, I was looking for clarification of something I was confused about so that I would NOT be in violation of the law.

Thanks for the lecture.

You're the one that said you took 10 pheasants:

".....It just seems like the possession limits are pretty small, to be considered reasonable. We have a possession limit of 4 pheasants. Between my son and I, we have taken 10 pheasants this fall, never exceeding the daily limit of 2.

Then you said "......I can see a need for more than 4 pheasants......"

Did I miss something?

You said you violated the law and then justified that violation by saying you could see a need.

"Seeing a need" isn't much of a legal defense.

[Patrick L]

Megasupermagnum,

Thank you for your reply.


Massachusetts (where I often pheasant hunt) has a daily bag limit (2), a possession limit (4), and a total season limit (6). So my confusion is, if I reach my season limit, without ever exceeding the daily bag limit, but I haven't eaten any yet, just butchered and froze them, am I in trouble?? It seems like I have exceeded my possession limit.

It may be a moot point, since I live in NY. I looked quick, and I don't see any possession OR season limits (except for a few WMUs right down near NYC, they do have a season limit of 30) in the syllabus, only a daily bag limit (same as Mass, 2.) So I think I may be OK.

[Patrick L]

I did not take 10. You misunderstood that. Between the two of us. Neither one of us has exceeded the season limit of 6.

[lefty o]

While many states give game wardens a board amount of discretion to conduct warrantless searches, I know of NO states in which that discretion to violate the 4th amendment extends to a dwelling.

I've heard the myths about the "all powerful game warden" my entire life. The stories all revolve around the misconception that game wardens are somehow above the 4th amendment by virtue of their status as game wardens.

By the nature of their work, game wardens often must operate in remote locations and deal with highly mobile suspects. To answer those issues, most states give wardens greater leeway in search and seizure powers IN THE FIELD.
No state gives them carte blanche to enter HOMES without a search warrant.

Stories about, "I heard about a guy who's house was searched by game wardens without a warrant" are about as credible as the current forth party hearsay being submitted in the impeachment hearings.

Cue REO Speedwagon's, " heard it from a friend who.....heard it from a friend who.....heard it from another......"

game wardens do not need a warrant to enter a dwelling in the state of MN.

[M-Tecs]

While many states give game wardens a board amount of discretion to conduct warrantless searches, I know of NO states in which that discretion to violate the 4th amendment extends to a dwelling.

This is the first one that popped up on google. While I have never have had my home inspected by a game warden I have been stopped on the interstate for game checks (once in ND and once in Montana). Same for DUI check points (4 times in MN, twice in ND, twice in Ohio and once in Hawaii). They are both clearly against the 4th but it happens all the time. Same for all the state laws that violate the 2nd. Back to home inspections personally know of three individual in two different states that had no warrant home entry. One spend over $30,000 fighting the no warrant entry and he still lost.

[url]https://www.uslawshield.com/game-wardens-texas-immense-police-power/[/url]

Texas Game Wardens: What You Need to Know
Posted on September 4, 2017
Hi, I’m Richard Hayes, newest Independent Program Attorney with Texas LawShield®. As a former felony prosecutor, I worked closely with several game wardens and the Texas Department of Parks & Wildlife. After speaking with them and other folks, I saw there were some common re-occurring misconceptions that you need to know about. [Transcript below video.]


Game Wardens Are Police
First, game wardens are police. That means that they’re licensed peace officers in the State of Texas, and, arguably, they are some of the most powerful police in the state. They can inspect, search, seize, and arrest just like a regular police officer. And while most of the time they’re enforcing the Texas Parks & Wildlife Code, they have the full authority to enforce all other Texas criminal laws, including the penal code.
So, remember, when you’re dealing with a Texas game warden, you’re dealing with the police.
Game Wardens Have Broad Search Powers
Next, Texas game wardens have broad search powers.

We’re all aware of our Fourth Amendment, Constitutionally-guaranteed right against unreasonable search and seizure. But what does the Fourth Amendment mean when [you are] confronted by a Texas game warden? When can they search you or your property?
If a Texas game warden reasonably believes that you or someone else is engaged in a regulated activity, they can inspect any device used to hunt or collect a wildlife resource. Also, they can search any container or receptacle that is capable of concealing a wildlife resource or those devices. This includes vehicles, boats, game bags, freezers, coolers, or even something as small as an Altoids box that could contain a lure.
Game Wardens’ Jurisdictions?
But what about a Texas game warden’s jurisdiction? Well, just as wildlife go between city and county lines, so does the jurisdiction of a Texas game warden. Texas game wardens’ jurisdiction is statewide.
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It doesn’t matter whether or not you’re engaged in hunting or fishing. What it comes down to is the wildlife code is complicated, and it can feel arbitrary at times. What that means is well-intentioned hunters and anglers sometimes find themselves on the wrong side of the law, as the saying goes.
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[megasupermagnum]

While many states give game wardens a board amount of discretion to conduct warrantless searches, I know of NO states in which that discretion to violate the 4th amendment extends to a dwelling.

I've heard the myths about the "all powerful game warden" my entire life. The stories all revolve around the misconception that game wardens are somehow above the 4th amendment by virtue of their status as game wardens.

By the nature of their work, game wardens often must operate in remote locations and deal with highly mobile suspects. To answer those issues, most states give wardens greater leeway in search and seizure powers IN THE FIELD.
No state gives them carte blanche to enter HOMES without a search warrant.

Stories about, "I heard about a guy who's house was searched by game wardens without a warrant" are about as credible as the current forth party hearsay being submitted in the impeachment hearings.

Cue REO Speedwagon's, " heard it from a friend who.....heard it from a friend who.....heard it from another......"

I, first hand, witnessed a game warden enter our property, the garage to be exact, without a warrant and without knocking. I was just a kid at the time, and dad worked nights. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but mom let him into the house to check the freezers. So unless the attached garage doesn't count, it happened to us.

This was just a year or two after the ice fishing incident, likely the same guy. MN game wardens have left a sour taste in my mouth for most of my life.

@Patrick L, this is the first I've ever heard of a season limit on Pheasant. Likely what possession limit means in that case is for transportation. Meaning you cant hunt multiple days and drive home with more than 4 in the cooler. And of course you know that once you hit 6, you are done for the year, even if you eat them. I doubt party hunting counts in a place like that.

[Petrol & Powder]

I, first hand, witnessed a game warden enter our property, the garage to be exact, without a warrant and without knocking. I was just a kid at the time, and dad worked nights. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but mom let him into the house to check the freezers. So unless the attached garage doesn't count, it happened to us.

This was just a year or two after the ice fishing incident, likely the same guy. MN game wardens have left a sour taste in my mouth for most of my life.

@Patrick L, this is the first I've ever heard of a season limit on Pheasant. Likely what possession limit means in that case is for transportation. Meaning you cant hunt multiple days and drive home with more than 4 in the cooler. And of course you know that once you hit 6, you are done for the year, even if you eat them. I doubt party hunting counts in a place like that.

"....mom let him into the house to check the freezers..."
Sounds Like CONSENT to me. No search warrant needed and no 4th amendment violation.

Tell you what, I'm always open to learn something.

Find a published case where a game warden searched a dwelling without a search warrant, seized evidence of a game violation and that evidence was found to be admissible and I'll admit I'm wrong.

Has to be a published case, with named defendants, jurisdiction and date. Has to be a home: not just a truck, cooler, jacket, creel, etc.

In the meantime, I've been listening to this lore about game wardens being above the Constitution my entire life and I've yet to see a shred of evidence that supports that myth.

[rl69]

Megasupermagnum,

Thank you for your reply.


Massachusetts (where I often pheasant hunt) has a daily bag limit (2), a possession limit (4), and a total season limit (6). So my confusion is, if I reach my season limit, without ever exceeding the daily bag limit, but I haven't eaten any yet, just butchered and froze them, am I in trouble?? It seems like I have exceeded my possession limit.

It may be a moot point, since I live in NY. I looked quick, and I don't see any possession OR season limits (except for a few WMUs right down near NYC, they do have a season limit of 30) in the syllabus, only a daily bag limit (same as Mass, 2.) So I think I may be OK.

In Texas once the game has reached your home and has been butchered it no longer consederd game. I'm alowed 5 deer in Texas if I still have meat in the freezer from last year it dosent matter I can still take 5 deer this year

[M-Tecs]

While many states give game wardens a board amount of discretion to conduct warrantless searches, I know of NO states in which that discretion to violate the 4th amendment extends to a dwelling.

I've heard the myths about the "all powerful game warden" my entire life. The stories all revolve around the misconception that game wardens are somehow above the 4th amendment by virtue of their status as game wardens.

By the nature of their work, game wardens often must operate in remote locations and deal with highly mobile suspects. To answer those issues, most states give wardens greater leeway in search and seizure powers IN THE FIELD.
No state gives them carte blanche to enter HOMES without a search warrant.

Stories about, "I heard about a guy who's house was searched by game wardens without a warrant" are about as credible as the current forth party hearsay being submitted in the impeachment hearings.

Cue REO Speedwagon's, " heard it from a friend who.....heard it from a friend who.....heard it from another......"

Per Virginia code a dwelling needs a warrant. This is not true in a lot of other states. In Virginia anything other than a dwelling has zero 4th protection.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/...ction29.1-208/

Code of Virginia
Table of Contents » Title 29.1. Game, Inland Fisheries and Boating » Chapter 2. Conservation Police Officers » § 29.1-208. Searches and seizures
Section
Print PDF email

§ 29.1-208. Searches and seizures.
All conservation police officers are vested with the authority to search any person arrested as provided in § 29.1-205 together with any box, can, package, barrel or other container, hunting bag, coat, suit, trunk, grip, satchel or fish basket carried by, in the possession of, or belonging to such person. Conservation police officers shall also have the authority, immediately subsequent to such arrest, to enter and search any refrigerator, building, vehicle, or other place in which the officer making the search has reasonable ground to believe that the person arrested has concealed or placed any wild bird, wild animal or fish, which will furnish evidence of a violation of the hunting, trapping and inland fish laws. Such a search may be made without a warrant, except that a dwelling may not be searched without a warrant. Should any container as described in this section reveal any wild bird, wild animal or fish, or any part thereof, which has been illegally taken, possessed, sold, purchased or transported, the conservation police officer shall seize and hold as evidence the container, together with such wild bird, wild animal or fish, and any unlawful gun, net, or other device of any kind for taking wild birds, wild animals or fish which he may find.
Code 1950, § 29-33; 1987, c. 488; 2007, c. 87.

[wills]

https://law.justia.com/cases/texas/c.../605-83-4.html

[megasupermagnum]

"....mom let him into the house to check the freezers..."
Sounds Like CONSENT to me. No search warrant needed and no 4th amendment violation.

Tell you what, I'm always open to learn something.

Find a published case where a game warden searched a dwelling without a search warrant, seized evidence of a game violation and that evidence was found to be admissible and I'll admit I'm wrong.

Has to be a published case, with named defendants, jurisdiction and date. Has to be a home: not just a truck, cooler, jacket, creel, etc.

In the meantime, I've been listening to this lore about game wardens being above the Constitution my entire life and I've yet to see a shred of evidence that supports that myth.

I think you missed the part where he opened our garage and started rummaging through our stuff. Us kids were told to stay put, we didn't know who it was. He didn't just drive up and knock, he parked somewhere else, and snuck into our garage.

[Patrick L]

Thanks for all the genuine, polite replies. Megasupermagnum, I would think that your interpretation is correct, but I think what I need to do is flat out ask a conservation officer. If I encounter one I will.

I apologize that this thread has turned into a shouting match of sorts. It was never my intent. I really did have what I thought was a simple question. And I NEVER intended my questioning of the rationale of a law to be ANY sort of justification for violating it.

[Petrol & Powder]

Per Virginia code a dwelling needs a warrant. This is not true in a lot of other states. In Virginia anything other than a dwelling has zero 4th protection.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/...ction29.1-208/

Code of Virginia
Table of Contents » Title 29.1. Game, Inland Fisheries and Boating » Chapter 2. Conservation Police Officers » § 29.1-208. Searches and seizures
Section
Print PDF email

§ 29.1-208. Searches and seizures.
All conservation police officers are vested with the authority to search any person arrested as provided in § 29.1-205 together with any box, can, package, barrel or other container, hunting bag, coat, suit, trunk, grip, satchel or fish basket carried by, in the possession of, or belonging to such person. Conservation police officers shall also have the authority, immediately subsequent to such arrest, to enter and search any refrigerator, building, vehicle, or other place in which the officer making the search has reasonable ground to believe that the person arrested has concealed or placed any wild bird, wild animal or fish, which will furnish evidence of a violation of the hunting, trapping and inland fish laws. Such a search may be made without a warrant, except that a dwelling may not be searched without a warrant. Should any container as described in this section reveal any wild bird, wild animal or fish, or any part thereof, which has been illegally taken, possessed, sold, purchased or transported, the conservation police officer shall seize and hold as evidence the container, together with such wild bird, wild animal or fish, and any unlawful gun, net, or other device of any kind for taking wild birds, wild animals or fish which he may find.
Code 1950, § 29-33; 1987, c. 488; 2007, c. 87.

Apparently you missed the part about those searches must be predicated on an ARREST, supported by probable cause. So the 4th Amendment is alive and well.

§ 29.1-208. Searches and seizures.
All conservation police officers are vested with the authority to search any person arrested as provided in § 29.1-205 together with any box, can, package, barrel or other container, hunting bag, coat, suit, trunk, grip, satchel or fish basket carried by, in the possession of, or belonging to such person. Conservation police officers shall also have the authority, immediately subsequent to such arrest, to enter and search any refrigerator, building, vehicle, or other place in which the officer making the search has reasonable ground to believe that the person arrested has concealed or placed any wild bird, wild animal or fish, which will furnish evidence of a violation of the hunting, trapping and inland fish laws. Such a search may be made without a warrant, except that a dwelling may not be searched without a warrant. Should any container as described in this section reveal any wild bird, wild animal or fish, or any part thereof, which has been illegally taken, possessed, sold, purchased or transported, the conservation police officer shall seize and hold as evidence the container, together with such wild bird, wild animal or fish, and any unlawful gun, net, or other device of any kind for taking wild birds, wild animals or fish which he may find.
Code 1950, § 29-33; 1987, c. 488; 2007, c. 87.

[BrutalAB]

Back to the original question....

I would assume that it varies by state, but ky has done a pretty good job answering/explainin this on their website.

"How is the daily creel limit different than a possession limit?
The daily creel limit is the number of particular sport fish species you may keep in one day’s fishing. A possession limit is the maximum number of sport fish a person may hold in the field after two or more days of fishing."

I know this thread is more about game animals rather than fish, but to my knowledge ky doesnt have a posssession limit on deer.

I wondered about this question as a kid, but we never had anywhere near the possession limit of crappie it was like 60 or something, so it never was something i 'needed' to know the exact answer. But glad my state actually clairifies what possession is. Hope all of them do.

Source: https://fw.ky.gov/More/Pages/FAQ.aspx

[MT Gianni]

People in MT have been arrested for violating a possesion limit who were canning fish in a camp trailer then transporting. I have heard of warrants being issued to check game in a freezer to verify dna samples all showed from the same animals. This type of warrant would not be handed out easily, IMO.
In MT & ID possession limits mean what you possess in person. Canned were generally exempt if they were in your home or place of residence, but it would be a bad idea to have a cabin on a lake with 20 dozen jars of canned fish all having this years date if the possession limit was twice daily limit.

[Petrol & Powder]

Thank You MT Gianni for including the key word "Warrant" in your post.

Because the duty of a game warden requires operation in remote areas and they deal with very mobile people and very mobile evidence, the courts and various legislatures have granted game wardens a lot of leeway in conducting warrantless searches in the field, but one place the courts have NOT granted that warrantless search authority is within a person's home.

My entire adult life I've heard people falsely claim that game wardens have some superman like power to jump over the 4th amendment in a single bound. Despite the frequency in which that myth is repeated, it is not accurate.

If game wardens could arbitrarily search a home without a warrant, other police officers wouldn't bother to obtain search warrants for drugs, stolen property or other evidence,......... they would simply bring a game warden with them.

The mere status of being a game warden doesn't grant special authority outside of the Constitutional limits.
The law applies to everyone: you, me, the President, even...... game wardens.

For decades the courts have repeatedly held that a person's home receives the strongest protection under the 4th amendment. Even the almighty game wardens are bound by the Constitution, despite all the lore to the contrary.

[Hickory]

You must live in a very draconian state.

You should live in Ohio and have to deal with game wardens.
I feel like a Jew in 1939 Germany.
No exaggeration, true story.

[dangitgriff]

I did not take 10. You misunderstood that. Between the two of us. Neither one of us has exceeded the season limit of 6.

Florida clearly states in their WMA regulations brochures what the season limits for any particular game animal are. The daily bag/possession limit up to the season limit seems easy to understand.
I believe the only way around any of the limits is to eat it faster than you kill it

[dangitgriff]

You should live in Ohio and have to deal with game wardens.
I feel like a Jew in 1939 Germany.
No exaggeration, true story.

One day while they were on the family property in Glouster, Ohio, my uncle’s red-headed girlfriend pulled out his Colt Match Target pistol and stuck it in a game warden’s face and told him to get off their property and never return...he left. Gotta love the ‘70’s.

[429421Cowboy]

Montana's laws regarding possession limits have been laid out well by MT Gianni, and I can tell you that people do get busted here for being over possession limits. These was a gentleman recently that got dinged for having piles of trout in his freezer from Canyon Ferry, and continuing to fish every day and bring limits home. I agree with the law for that reason, if you have a freezer full of fish at home, why not catch and release until you've eaten a few? He had more than a year's supply already even if that's all he ate (yuck) and he can't even be saving up for hard times or the end of the world because in that case the freezer would be out!
My question I need to ask a warden is on certain water bodies there are high daily limits and no possession limits at all. So if I have my possession limit of xx of perch from Pishkun in the freezer, but have hundreds of perch fillets from Holter where there was no possession limit until this year, how can anyone know? An imperfect law to be sure.
Another question would be the interpretation of "daily limit" among folks (not wardens). I interpret it as just that, how many I can catch/kill in a day, but I have known people who think that means you can catch a limit of fish in the morning or geese on the early flight, take them home then head out for the evening bite/flight and bag another limit.