Charter .41, .44 & .45

[Tom W.]

I didn’t know Charter Arms made a 45 Colt! Thanks for the heads up!

The Pitbull is .45 acp......

[pettypace]

Which one would provide "better" performance at:
1. Penetration through heavy clothing and perp.
2. Expansion.
3. Energy dump.
4. What else?

Dangit if I could say I know which one would be "better".
I suspect the .41 would have the edge on penetration, expansion and energy dumping but somebody would have a lot of testing to do for shooter friendliness along with those other characteristics to make me agree as to which was "better".

Maybe it's hard to choose because there really is no choice -- at least not in terms of performance. In another thread, Outpost75 recalled an old formula for handgun effectiveness:

If one would simply follow Keith's advice to use a caliber with starts with a "4", firing a soft lead, half ounce, 6-10 BHN bullet, having a meplat larger than half of the bullet diameter, at about 900 fps, you have the exact performance needed for a defensive handgun or outdoorsman's "packing pistol."

The .41 Magnum, .44 Special, and .45 Colt are all capable of satisfying the "Keith criteria." There really is no choice in terms of penetration, expansion, or energy. So, go to #4: "What else?"

In post #17 above:

...the round for this gun is the .45 ACP...no moon clips needed..

Nice big bullet with a short case for easy ejection...and lots of factory ammo a lot cheaper than any of the others...

If you ever need to reload in a hurry, that short case might make a big difference. And the ready availability and variety of factory ammo is a very good thing. I don't know about the little spring loaded extractor devices for the rimless cartridges. But maybe that works.

In post #11 above, I showed this 5-shot target fired from a .44 Bulldog by a novice shooter:

Attachment 250664

That's a score of 98 with three or four X's. But it was fired with just five shots. The maximum score should be just 50-5X. It's easy to see how those five extra holes increase the score on a paper target. But imagine how five extra .44 caliber wadcutters, each with more than 16" of penetration, increase the chances of a vital hit or an incapacitating accumulation of hits on a bad guy. Of course, you could cook up a two-projectile load for a .41 or a .45. But the recipe can't be any easier than for the .44.

[Boogieman]

A 44 spcl. 250 gr.SWC HP cast, soft over as much Unique as your hand will stand. Works in my 3" GP100

[pettypace]

A 44 spcl. 250 gr.SWC HP cast, soft over as much Unique as your hand will stand. Works in my 3" GP100

That works in Loads of Bacon's .44 Bulldog, too. See video here: https://youtu.be/KD2FntxgG0A?t=138

[35remington]

The spring loaded extractor thingy that unchains you from moon clips in the Charter revolvers also makes them harder to reload. And of course a speedloader is out, so potentially better to use rimmed cartridges in revolvers to avoid moon clip frailty and allow use of a speedloader.

[winelover]

Out of curiosity, went to Charter Arm's site. Not seeing any Bulldogs chambered for 41 Mag or 45 LC. They have Bulldogs in 40 S&W and 45 ACP. Can anyone provide the link?

BTW, I'm happy with my 44 Special CA "Fit for Duty" Bulldog. It is a handful with anything over moderate loadings. I carry it mainly while bow hunting.

Winelover

[Uncle Grinch]

Got my wife a 44 Bulldog and am trying these 185 gn wadcutters. No range time yet.

Attachment 250871

[onelight]

Out of curiosity, went to Charter Arm's site. Not seeing any Bulldogs chambered for 41 Mag or 45 LC. They have Bulldogs in 40 S&W and 45 ACP. Can anyone provide the link?

BTW, I'm happy with my 44 Special CA "Fit for Duty" Bulldog. It is a handful with anything over moderate loadings. I carry it mainly while bow hunting.

Winelover

Here ya go , not sure if the 41 is discontinued
https://charterfirearms.com/collecti...ts/model-74530
https://charterfirearms.com/products...f44482ba&_ss=r

[Petrol & Powder]

All my experiments (40 years ago) with HBWCs loaded backwards in .38 Spl revolvers resulted in keyholing and I gave up on the concept.

I also experimented with loading HBWC's backwards and the results were not good.
Accuracy was terrible and the skirt often separated from the bullet resulting in reduced mass and less penetration.

I think the reverse loaded HBWC is one of those concepts that looks good at first glance but in reality is one of those myths that just will not die.

[Gamsek]

I also experimented with loading HBWC's backwards and the results were not good.
Accuracy was terrible and the skirt often separated from the bullet resulting in reduced mass and less penetration.

I think the reverse loaded HBWC is one of those concepts that looks good at first glance but in reality is one of those myths that just will not die.

Reverse HBWC works well with this design. Tested at 10m and 35meters. My is from MP, 214grs in HB (can make solid also).

[35remington]

Nearly all by current measurement fail to meet minimum standards according to currently accepted protocols that stress a certain amount of penetration is required. The expansion is too disk like.

If such things do not matter to that individual I suppose I can see where they might think they are acceptable. They would fail pretty badly where barriers or an intervening arm were involved.

[pettypace]

I'd like to know more about the "greenies" in the picture: What was the bullet alloy? What was the muzzle velocity? What were they shot into? And with what results?

Just estimating the expanded diameter from the picture to be about 0.75", a quick calculation shows that it would take something just north of 1000 f/s to reach the FBI minimum 12" penetration in bare gel. I'm not sure how many 214 grain 1000 f/s loads a Bulldog could take. Probably more than I'd want to shoot from one.

Even so, I wouldn't dismiss that MP mould out of hand. If the expansion were less, say 0.6", then you could get over 15" of penetration at about 800 f/s. That's not far from the Keith recipe (.40+ caliber, half ounce of soft lead, 900 ft/s) that Outpost75 posted recently. And a .44 Bulldog could easily handle that -- as could the shooter. The shootee -- not so much.

[Gamsek]

I'd like to know more about the "greenies" in the picture: What was the bullet alloy? What was the muzzle velocity? What were they shot into? And with what results?

Just estimating the expanded diameter from the picture to be about 0.75", a quick calculation shows that it would take something just north of 1000 f/s to reach the FBI minimum 12" penetration in bare gel. I'm not sure how many 214 grain 1000 f/s loads a Bulldog could take. Maybe a few more than I'd want to shoot from one.

Even so, I wouldn't dismiss that MP mould out of hand. If the expansion were less, say 0.6", then you could get over 15" of penetration at about 800 f/s. That's not far from the Keith recipe (.40+ caliber, half ounce of soft lead, 900 ft/s) that Outpost75 posted recently. And a .44 Bulldog could easily handle that -- as could the shooter. The shootee -- not so much.

All my HP bullets are made from pure lead with 2-3% to max 5% tin, that 432-395 MP Mold were made from pure with 2-3% tin.

I have shoot this one in soft soaked paper, water and large man sized ice cones at 35m that’s why I know they fly straight in “reversed mode”. Shoot at 10m
at target-perfect. All my recovered bullets lost 1grs max and got perfect mushrooms. Tried also through heavy double layered clothes+T-shirt backed by water jug and soaked paper. Expansion was less but still good. Home defends load? Yes.
If someone wants to see me shooting reversed HBWC at 35 m hitting and breaking man sized ice cones send me pm with your email. I can post target at 10m shooting offhand with reversed. It’s stabile because of shape of cavity. Velocity was from
750 to 850fps, have few more 44 moulds that get more of my attention.
Will recommend the best 44 bullet for Charter 3” and home defence use in my next post

[Gamsek]

MP Molds 180-SWC was designed for lighter revolvers also as a home defence load, with one mould you get 4sets of pins FP, penta HP, deep HP (180grs) Cup HP so you can tweak your alloy, velocity or change HP pins to get what you want (12”?).

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/44-...2-cavity-mold/

[Petrol & Powder]

Reverse HBWC works well with this design. Tested at 10m and 35meters. My is from MP, 214grs in HB (can make solid also).

Pretty pictures. What were they shot into? HOW FAR DID THEY PENETRATE? And what was the velocity of that 214 grain HBWC ?

I apologize for being the jerk here, but the reverse loaded hollow base isn't a miracle bullet.

[pettypace]

Got my wife a 44 Bulldog and am trying these 185 gn wadcutters. No range time yet.

Attachment 250871

That looks like a good bullet for the 44 Bulldog. Dunno what velocity you'll get from 6.0 grains of Red Dot. But anything from 600 f/s to 800 f/s should give FBI approved penetration without too much recoil.

[Tom W.]

Excuse me! I looked and obviously missed the .45 Colt revolver. Thanks for the link.

[Gamsek]

Pretty pictures. What were they shot into? HOW FAR DID THEY PENETRATE? And what was the velocity of that 214 grain HBWC ?

I apologize for being the jerk here, but the reverse loaded hollow base isn't a miracle bullet.

I never claimed it’s a miracle bullet, I just said MINE fly STRAIGHT. If you look at design of that HBWC you will see that reversed 432-395 becomes a HP bullet with gentle bevel base and huge HP. I never made any scientific tests with it, I was just curious how they work in reversed mode. Have other 180,200,250 and 260grs HP .44 Molds to use for hunt etc....

Green ones were shoot into soaked wet paper. 750fps of 850fps-can’t remember. They did not penetrate a lot (obviously), I did not measure the penetration, but based on what I saw I would used them for MY home defence load when I would want maximum expansion and less penetration.

And as you saw from my one time non-scientific test with heavy clothes-where I used 432-395 in:
FP original mode, reversed mode and reversed with .320 RB inserted, even reversed HBWC (or a huge HP without RB) can penetrate and expands well. Based on that observations I would not hesitate to use it.


This bullet was found 2 months after I killed few huge ice cones with 5grs of fast burning powder and reversed HBWC at 35 meters. Not only accurate, they fly straight and they did expand.

[Good Cheer]

My HBWC "formula" is heavy bullet and much speed equals expansion and penetration. You need to push it fast but you also need the weight for it to keep moving.
That makes for much snubby recoil. However, being able to crank it up in a revolver rated for "magnum" service means you can have heavy bullet as well as much speed. So for things that go bump in the night a magnum gets the nod. Charter said they have the 2 1/2" barrel in .41. Not a deer hunting gun, well, except when the better 2/3's is standing in the door arguing with them over eating her back porch flowers.
If I get one of these rascals gonna have to test the #41026 and see if it will penetrate much. Tested it in a percussion revolver and it penetrated less than half as much as the Lee 195 SWC and #41028. Ol' #41027 would get tested backwards. But it sure is a pain to get good castings filled out. And as previously mentioned, wouldn't it be a hoot if #410426 tumbled like the old 200 grain .38's.

Well, meanwhile, 45ACP will be the bump thumper. No doubts about what it does with heavy drag chute hollow points.

[Groo]

Groo here
For those who dont know ,,, The bulldog is a 44 spec and the some what larger pitbull is in 45 acp,45colt and 41MAG........
More steel in the cylinder on the pitbull.....................