Inline FabricationWidenersMidSouth Shooters SupplyLee Precision
Load DataRepackboxReloading EverythingTitan Reloading
RotoMetals2
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: Out of the oven and into the water

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156

    Out of the oven and into the water

    I'm wondering what to expect in terms of hardness when PC'd WW boolits are dropped from the coating cook into water. I have oven hardened ww castings in the distant past with great success but if memory serves they soaked in the oven for about an hour.

    What would be the results when they have spent a mere 20 minutes at 400*? Is it long enough to get a full hardening? Would it be detrimental to leave them in the oven for an hour? Or more?

    I know some drop their boolits from the coating into water but am uncertain as to the results.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    10,572
    Bake for an hour after shiny, then into water. Doesn't hurt the PC. If they hit each other getting dumped it will remove some PC. Made some coat hanger 'handles' to move the tray into H2O quickly but gently so no bumps.
    Whatever!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Petander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,602
    I just tried. Ten minutes in 400°F oven + water drop did nothing measurable to hardness. Same bullets one hour in 440°F + drop ice water,one hour in water gave whopping 36 BHN... which dropped to about 20 BHN in a day and has been there.

    It would be nice to find alloy/bake combo for consistant 16-18 BHN bullets,using as little antimony as possible to save WW...

    http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Central OH
    Posts
    495
    Measure again after 3-4 weeks and you will see the hardness come down to 14-ish.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    El Dorado County, N. Ca.
    Posts
    6,234
    TATV Canada has done this test and more a couple years back...here is your answer.

    Does Cast Bullet Hardness change after Powder Coating?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fbjs-lErL0&t=163s

    He then follows up with more test regarding age hardening...check his Y_Tube Channel...
    https://www.youtube.com/user/TATVCanada/videos
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Petander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,602
    I wish those test results were in written form, I'm too old for youtube tests. And right now they are broken,no play.

    Do they take different antimony/tin contents into account in those videos? I baked a batch of 8 BHN ~95/4/1 last night for an hour in 400, they are hardening slowly.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    El Dorado County, N. Ca.
    Posts
    6,234
    Quote Originally Posted by Petander View Post
    I wish those test results were in written form, I'm too old for youtube tests. And right now they are broken,no play.

    Do they take different antimony/tin contents into account in those videos? I baked a batch of 8 BHN ~95/4/1 last night for an hour in 400, they are hardening slowly.
    I just went and reviewed his video and he stated in the opening comments that all the tests were based on Wheel Weight Alloy.

    It is only a 4 minute and very concise video, you should make an effort to view it wherever you can...possibly a friends iPhone...then you can stop the video and copy the test results at each point.
    He does several test with air cool cast then quench after PC'ing, then quenched casts and quenched after PC'ing, and several more with various air cool vs quench situations. Maybe someone could screen shot his test reports as they watch and post them here for you.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Petander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,602
    Thank you,I have no problem doing my own tests. I'll try to take a look.

    But like I wrote above,I'm interested in hardening WW/pure mixes. To save WW because it is getting impossible to find. Pure is available.

    I guess my question is: what % of WW is needed in WW/Pure-mix to get an alloy that heat treats to BHN 16? And what is the best way to treat?

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    El Dorado County, N. Ca.
    Posts
    6,234
    Quote Originally Posted by Petander View Post
    Thank you,I have no problem doing my own tests. I'll try to take a look.

    But like I wrote above,I'm interested in hardening WW/pure mixes. To save WW because it is getting impossible to find. Pure is available.

    I guess my question is: what % of WW is needed in WW/Pure-mix to get an alloy that heat treats to BHN 16? And what is the best way to treat?
    As you prolly already know, this depends on the amount of Sb & As in the blend along with oven temperature & time.
    This is the best link I know of to determine those variables...

    http://www.lasc.us/Kelter_Cast_Bullet_Alloys2.pdf

    http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    263
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CastBulletHardness.png 
Views:	37 
Size:	23.3 KB 
ID:	250677

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Petander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,602
    Quote Originally Posted by Camper64 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CastBulletHardness.png 
Views:	37 
Size:	23.3 KB 
ID:	250677
    Thank you - what's the bake time & temp here?

    I test my alloy so I know where I'm at to begin with. I never really quenched, never needed more than 16 BHN but now it's time to start saving WW and Lino.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master fredj338's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kalif.
    Posts
    7,203
    I PC range scrap. I water drop out of the oven after 13-15m. Measured a week later, I get a tiny bhn bump, maybe 3bhn. It's all near the surface though, but they shoot great so??
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
    NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    263
    Quote Originally Posted by Petander View Post
    Thank you - what's the bake time & temp here?

    I test my alloy so I know where I'm at to begin with. I never really quenched, never needed more than 16 BHN but now it's time to start saving WW and Lino.
    Bullets were powder coated using Emerald Coatings' Flat Black at 400F for 15 minutes using a standard toaster oven.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Petander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,602
    Quote Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
    I PC range scrap. I water drop out of the oven after 13-15m. Measured a week later, I get a tiny bhn bump, maybe 3bhn. It's all near the surface though, but they shoot great so??
    Excellent. I need to re-check my 10 min baked ones after a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camper64 View Post
    Bullets were powder coated using Emerald Coatings' Flat Black at 400F for 15 minutes using a standard toaster oven.
    Very good info.

    This is going to be an interesting thread.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Petander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,602
    Quote Originally Posted by igolfat8 View Post
    Measure again after 3-4 weeks and you will see the hardness come down to 14-ish.
    14 is good for many uses.

    I did a one hour batch in 400F three days ago. They got a coat of Hi Tek as well, I had sized them to .358 before swirling the final coat. My "Accident Alloy" is something like Hardball cut with pure 50/50, BHN 8. It came up to 14 today, I loaded a pocketful of full power 357 magnum rounds (VV N110) and got a clean barrel. And I mean clean clean.

    Very happy,it's always exciting to develop a cast load for a new caliber/gun. I haven't had a 357 for many years and this hardening thing is new,I have used alloys as they are,used up quite a bit of lino...




  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    10,572
    Add some arsenic (a tad of #7 chilled shot - 0.2% is enough) to get hardening quicker. Bumpo has a alloy calculator on the web. Anything below 2% Sb doesn't h.t. much. Sn brings the initial BHN down quickly. Garden sulphur works as a hardener as does copper sulfate. An hour soak @ 400F allows the molecules to move around and 'form' a harder alloy. Hardness comes from freezing the molecules in place - a function of the RATE of cooling, related to difference between hot and cold temp. AC (slow cooling) allows tin to form globs and antimony to make 'tree' like structures. CuSO4 forms a CuSb alloy that doesn't 'separate' with time. Sulphur, CuSb and As occupy empty spaces in the Pb lattice and reduce slip of Pb so harder.
    Whatever!

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,514
    I did a test a couple years ago and water dropped some boolits in ice water right out of my mold. The alloy I used was 100% COWW that were brand new in the box from the late 70’s, early 80’s. I tested the WQCOWW alloy with my lead tester and it had a 36BH three weeks later. I then took some of the bullets and PCd them bakeing in the oven for 20 minutes at 400 degrees and immediately dropped them back into icewater for a second time. The BH on those were 15.4. I then use the same alloy and mold and casted some more boolits up and air cooled them cooled then I PCd and air cooled them again. The BH was 14.2 on the ACCOWW alloy. I’ll have to retest all those Alloys again since I’ve still have them all sitting around. They are all way too hard for my hunting use anyways.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Petander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,602
    Has anyone actually followed how heat treated bullets soften during the time?

    I've only read general statements like "tin rich alloys soften faster". How hard is a 36 BHN WW boolit after one year?

    I'll need to put some of these on a shelf and mark/date carefully.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    10,572
    I had some that dented superhard (dont have a tester) and they didn't get softer! They shot good after a year or so. I don't use tin in my alloy, not needed. An OP here used a wire welder to put CU in his alloy, probably BHN same as gilding metal! Some good threads here on hardening methods and results.
    Whatever!

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156
    I remember reading something by Veral Smith where he said the gradual softening of HT WW can be substantially slowed down by storing in a freezer.

    So far it looks like water dropping from the PC oven even with up to an hour soaking at 400* is not goin to appreciably harden more than air cooled and aged COWW. At least that's my takeaway so far.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check