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Thread: Organ pipes?

  1. #1
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    Organ pipes?

    Someone local has a bunch of old church organ pipes for sale. Seems I remember hearing those were madeof lead or tin or some alloy thereof? They don't look brass or copper in the pictures.

    Worth having a look at?

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    Its sad to see those old pipe organs get junked out.

    Yeah, I'd go check it out, it may be a super deal.
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  3. #3
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    Perhaps this PDF file would be helpful?

    http://www.hevanet.com/dibblee/pipe_metallurgy.pdf
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  4. #4
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    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ad-organ-pipes

    Another thread in the archives and a search will probably turn up many more. I get the impression you may need some help from BNE on figuring out what you have in the various sized pipes. Dusty

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    Here's another read.

    https://www.albany.edu/piporg-l/pipemet.html

    A bit technical and esoteric, but it reinforces what has been stated above. Varying alloys of mostly lead and tin, with small amounts of antimony, copper and bismuth, and occasionally zinc, have been used for organ pipes, so you may have lucked into a good tin and or lead source, depending on the individual pipes you obtain (and my understanding from the two references is that pipes can differ in composition, even if from the same organ).

    Zinc you can test for. The trace metals probably don't matter unless you have a front stuffer. Knowing the tin content would be useful. If you get a number of pipes, maybe segregate the obviously soft from the hard/shiney/spotted, melt them as two different lots and have them analyzed?

    ETA: you could in for quite a haul, literally. The largest pipes in big church organs can be 16 or 32 feet long, and weigh six hundred plus pounds!
    Last edited by kevin c; 11-03-2019 at 03:48 AM.

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    Boolit Buddy PBaholic's Avatar
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    Yes!

    I just ran across a bunch of organ pipes. The pipes themselves were pure tin. Some of the big ones were painted grab green, but were still tin. Some of the smaller ones had thicker lead parts cast around the tin, with brass wires stuck in them. There were also wooden wedges holding a brass reed in place in the lead part. The lead was not pure lead, but was a little harder. I don't recall if the lead part was BHN 11 or 7, as I picked up a bunch all at the same time.

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    I'll see if I can get the guy to answer me back. If it bends easily, I'll make an offer. probably melt it all down and send a sample to BNE to find out.

    Anyone know why they made organ pipes from lead alloys? Is there some acoustic quality to lead that makes it good for this?

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    The guy answered my message and figures he has 230 pounds of metal and was asking $65 for all of it. Can't see how I could go too wrong. Got a commitment that will keep me from it today, hopefully will still be there tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richhodg66 View Post
    I'll see if I can get the guy to answer me back. If it bends easily, I'll make an offer. probably melt it all down and send a sample to BNE to find out.

    Anyone know why they made organ pipes from lead alloys? Is there some acoustic quality to lead that makes it good for this?
    It has been a while since I read about those pipes, but I think it was to produce a better sound without adding anything to it. It is probably explained in one of the links you already have. I really would encourage you to consider sorting by hardness or appearance just to end up with a variety of knowns instead of one batch of "now what do I do with it?" metal. Just get the material, you have all winter to fiddle with it and sort out the really good stuff.

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    Anyone know why they made organ pipes from lead alloys? Is there some acoustic quality to lead that makes it good for this?[/QUOTE]

    You'll see when you get it. $65 for 230#'s is a GREAT deal.

    Some of the pipes have all tin openings, and there were little flaps that were peeled back to make an opening. It looks like they tune the pitch by opening and closing the flap. In other ones, they have a heavier lead part that has the Tin tube set into it, and there are brass rods that can move in and out. I think they needed the weight of the lead to hold the smaller Tin tube in place.

    The Tin will bend very easily, and is easily dented with your hand. In the pipes I've seen, the Tin was very refined sheet metal, and formed very cleanly. The lead was much more porous, and seems to have been poured around the Tin.

    I didn't buy the green painted tubes, but now I wish I had.

    I wanted to keep the metals separate, so I mechanically pulled each pipe apart. The lead will break off the tin easily, but you'll retain a bit of the Tin with the lead, as they are fused together. That's probably why my lead was a little harder then pure lead. My brass rods were bent, but I cut one end flush with the lead, and you could pull them out with a pliers. The brass reeds pull right out.

    The Tin will melt at a much lower temperature. If you hit both lead and Tin at the same time with a propane torch, you'll see the Tin melt very quickly

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bannister View Post
    It has been a while since I read about those pipes, but I think it was to produce a better sound without adding anything to it. It is probably explained in one of the links you already have. I really would encourage you to consider sorting by hardness or appearance just to end up with a variety of knowns instead of one batch of "now what do I do with it?" metal. Just get the material, you have all winter to fiddle with it and sort out the really good stuff.
    I think that is excellent advice about sorting, for sure. Particularly, IMO, if there is a lot of tin/lead alloy involved. That tin could be spread out into a lot of other alloys, if kept separated, but if all is melted together, then it may be more difficult to alloy with other metal to produce what you would want for shooting, and you maybe wasting the tin in some respects.

    I prefer to keep things separated myself, and then mix metals/alloys together, as I need them in small batches. Others prefer to make large batches. It is an individual choice I reckon.

    Up to you though RichHodg66, as it sounds as if is going to be your stuff.
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  14. #14
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    So long as there's no zinc, the pipes seem like a great deal at that price, regardless of the specific lead/tin ratios.

    That last reference I put up the link for said basically the sound characteristics are better for lead and tin, and more specifically said something about how lead pipes apparently don't resonate themselves as the note is made in the air column inside. I didn't understand the half of it.

    Seems like Pbholic's pipes have different metals making up different parts of the organ pipes. The reading I've done was about the pipes themselves being made of different tin/lead alloys, possibly with pipes in a single organ going to either extreme of mostly lead or mostly tin. Sounds like sorting and separation of parts and pipes both would get high and low tin alloys suitable for different applications.

  15. #15
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    In all my years of scrounging I've never found organ pipes. But, if the price was attractive enough I would check them out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PBaholic View Post
    Anyone know why they made organ pipes from lead alloys? Is there some acoustic quality to lead that makes it good for this?
    I'm chiming in that I understand a challenge with organ pipes is their propensity to vibrate. In addition to being a good metal for their creation, the presence of lead purportedly decreases the internal pipe vibration. An organ pipe is in essence no more than a huge whistle tuned to a specific pitch when air, controlled by a key-press (valve) governed by a stop -- a mechanical regulator -- is passed through it. The purity of each pipe's sound, and tuned preciseness of pitch is what makes the sound we hear so awesome! Internal vibration surely would muddle things up! (Albeit I'm primarily a piano player, my organ (a Roland B3 clone) is electronic... no pipes )
    geo

  17. #17
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    Oh man,melting church organ pipes... I still remember the first time when I was allowed to play church organ. I was about 12 and had had a few years of piano lessons already. And classical guitar.

    I've seen pipes for sale but I just couldn't melt them... That sound memory never fades. Like the first time I plugged in a Marshall stack.

    I'd keep the pipes as decoration.

  18. #18
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    I went and looked at them. He had one out, the rest were in a trailer with some other stuff on them. The one I looked at (and the rest looked like the same size) was maybe six feet long and about 4-5 inches in diameter and were cone shaped on one end. They had been rolled round and had a seem up one side soldered together.

    A magnet wouldn't stick to it and I could bend it with hand pressure, but not as easily as a soft lead alloy would have, especially with walls as thin as this. They were all painted gold. This one I looked at weighed seven pounds, according to him and that felt about right. It "clanged" more than I wa real comfortable with when tapped.

    I'm pretty sure these aren't lead alloy. The seller seems a good guy and I think was interested in what they might be, he had no idea other than a magnet wouldn't stick and obviously not copper or brass. He did take a side cutter and gave me a little piece to see what I could find out, so may be sending a sample to our friend BNE.

    Where does one get muriatic acid?

    I really don't think these are going anywhere real fast. They looked to be in good enough shape that it seems like they would be desirable to someone who wished to rebuild an antique organ.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by richhodg66 View Post
    Where does one get muriatic acid?
    I use the stuff that you get at swimming pool supply places. They use it to treat the water.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master BNE's Avatar
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    Most home improvement stores will sell muriatic acid.

    Shoot me the sample, I am curious as well.

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