New cartridges.

[Hickory]

These new cartridges, calibers and powders are not for us old guys. They are for the next generation of shooters, reloaders and hunters.
We have had our hay-day, the next generation will want theirs.

[castaroo]

the last deer I killed was with my heavy barrelled 303 brit , I made this one out of spare parts I found at the tip , except for the barrel , that was new and does shoot better than I can , action is a BSA 1916, iron sights no scope

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive seen about every new round that came out called a flash in the pan. When the 357mag came out everyone said it would never last because it had to much recoil. Now we have 500 smiths. When the 270 came out everyone asked why buy something that underperforms an 06 in every category. 243 To light for big game to heavy for varmints. 3030 Way to small of a bullet to be effective. Who knows what will really be a flash in the pan or a legitimate long term round. ANYTHING new today is questionable because you can find something close to it that already exists. Long time ago I quit trying to justify guns I wanted. matter of fact if its a bit obscure I like it even more. Lots of us originaly came to this form and started casting because what we wanted wasn't available. Theres nothing in north America that cant be killed cleanly with an 06. So does that make any round that came after it just a flash?

[pmer]

It seems to me that marketing departments in the firearm industry play to current interests in the buying public. Some years ago the magnum craze was hot. More recently states with cartridge requirements are having an effect on current cartridge designs. What I think is good about it is bullet manufactures are there matching bullets to the velocities. For example my 300 Blackout isn't fast enough to expand a Hornaday 150 grain SP at 1950 FPS. But Hornaday and Barnes have 110 grain or so bullets designed to be effective on deer sized game. A max charge of Lil'gun behind that Barnes 110 TAC TX in 16'' barreled 300 BO will split water jug in two up the middle to same effect that my 32 Win Spl does. I'm not saying these two are equal on deer but with the right bullet they should be effective.

Lots of people here love the 45-70 and load their Marlins down to 1600 FPS or less. The 458 SOCOM is completely at home at this velocity with 300-400 grain boolits. I used to have a Marlin 45-70....twice.

I got my first AR15 over 25 years ago and it wasn't pretty back then either. I was shooting High Power with a M1 Garand and having a great time. I eventually had the LGS put a Douglas barrel in it and my scores went up. I was basicaly just out there to improve my shooting and not really to "win". BUT these AR's started showing up in service rifle and were cleaning everybody's clock. The M1A crowd didn't care if I out scored a few of them with the Garand. But it wasn't at all hard to get them to start trash talking those stupid little ARs even to the point of wanting to start a new class. They didn't want to admit it but they could see the writing on the target that the AR was here and here to stay.

[glaciers]

I had started reading a Forum the other day that I came across, and it started out saying something about the 30-06 and the 270 Win being obsolete. Blasphemy. Yeah I'm and old guy, but, there are few cartridges that preform better by any margin that's worth while. Need more punch then the 30-06? I went to the 35 Whelen and the 338 Win mag. Now don't get me wrong, there are lots of cartridges out there that will do the job, but, by how much? Now I own calibers from 50 Alaskan to the 223 (I want a 17 Hornet, just saying), so I have options. But I keep coming back to the 30-06 as my go to rifle. Lot's of hype, sales pitch, and that's great to keep the ball rolling. Don't want to discourage the firearms interest for newer generations. But don't tell me that the 30-06 is obsolete. All calibers have there limitations, you just need to be aware of them and deal with it accordingly.
An earlier post in this thread was talking about a friend that wanted a 6.5 Creedmoor and though he should get rid of that old 270 that he had been using (which had worked just fine) for decades. Why. Unless you want one, there's no real reason. As I said I have a few firearms, but I don't need a 6.5 Creedmoor as I all ready have a semi-custom 260 Remington. If I had it to do over again, I'd go with the Creedmoor. But it was not out at that time I made the 260.
When the WSSM and the RUM, or whatever came out, I was unimpressed. 200fps more! Hot dog!! Hanging out on the fringe of chamber pressures, I'll pass. I did read up on them as there's a chance that something exciting may come along.
I do have one AR 15 lower. One of these days I'll get a 223 upper for it, and I thinking a 300 Blackout would be fun. Even that new 350 Legend looks like it might be fun on the AR platform. But then, I'd have a AR. Might get into it one day. Maybe.
The problem with the AR platform and lots of newer rifles is, their plastic. Blue steel and wood for me. Somethings never change, and I guess I'm just happy being stuck in the past.

[sharps4590]

As some have mentioned, if a "new" cartridge gets someone all bleary eyed, breathing hard and they have to have it, good for the makers of firearms and ammo but, don't expect me to run down to the nearest gun shop or jump on an online site and buy one. As someone said, pretty much what can be done has been done....and except for a rifle like the AR it was done over 100 years ago.

Besides, there is more than a few hundred old cartridges that are as good as anything out there today that I haven't had the opportunity to play with! I've had a ball with such cartridges as the 9.3 X 75R Nimrod, 9 X 71 Peterlongo, 7 X 64 Brenneke, 10.5 X 47R. 9 and 9.3 X 57, 8.15 X 46R, 8.7 X 55R, 8 X 56 and 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher/Schoenauer, one I call a 9.3 X 30US-R because it is a pre-nitro drilling that was re-chambered to a cartridge easily made from 30-40 Krag...and it is incredibly accurate and a hoot to shoot, the 11.15 X 60R and even my 500 BPE. Some of those will outperform newer cartridges in their class, others equal anything in their class and some are just old, obsolete and/or historical. I have others but I haven't scratched the surface!!

Now, that isn't a game for everyone, which I freely admit but, I thoroughly enjoy it. However, you delve into those old cartridges long enough and seriously enough, pretty soon you see that as far as ballistics go, as Solomon said, "there is nothing new under the sun". Just to pick on the 6.5 CM, anyone with the knowledge and ability can take a 6.5 X 55 Swede or 6.5 X 57, (or any of several other 6.5's), and do everything the CM can do...and more. Both those cartridges are pre-1900. Then you can get into the "standard" US hunting cartridges like the -06, 270, 280, 308, 243, 30-30, not to get into the magnums or short magnums, or, "the less than popular today cartridges" like the 257 Roberts, 300 Savage, the hoary old 30-40 Krag, the 250 Savage, and you'll be hard pressed to find a hunting cartridge any better. More popular or one you like better but, no more effective. Which describes all the cartridges I mentioned that I like to play with. I like them better because they're less popular or completely unknown but, none are any better than my old 270.

I didn't like the M-16 in basic training some 47 years ago...and my opinion hasn't changed. That others like/love it is fine with me and over the decades its versatility and accuracy have been proven but, I have absolutely no desires to own one.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I find the new cartridges very entertaining. You know how powerful that terrible AR15 is. Then there are the better than/as good as the '30-30 or 300 Savage or 45-70' sort of, kinda' cartridges for the AR or a 'TACTICOOL' bolt gun. There have always been purpose built cartridges, we called them 'WILDCATS'. I even have a couple, a 270-308 Improved on a Savage 99 (before the 7-08) and an 8-08, because there were many pristine and cheap 8mm barrels and plenty of 308 brass long ago. I like the 6.5 Creedmore as a better deer rifle than a .243 with better press than the 260 Rem. Mostly new stuff is good because it provides discussion, it is REALLY BORING when you hear 'the old OUGHT SIX is...'. Since the 8x57, there really has been little progress. I still shoot the 300 Savage, 45-70, for hunting, the 9mm, 45 ACP and 45 Colt in handguns, again the new stuff is entertaining, if not particularly better or more useful.

[Hickory]

Are we (old guys) living the life, fulfilling the dream, or just stuck in a groove we can't get out of?

[Lloyd Smale]

I call it the might mite. The little engine that could. I shot 5 deer this year between a 110 and 200 yards with one of my blackouts using the barnes 110 at 2400 fps. It did massive internal damage. As much or maybe even more then ive seen out of 3030s at those ranges. It is like the 3030 though. You have to pick the proper projectile. The 3030 about does it for you because until recently it was the only round with bullet designed specifically for it. Blackout is the same. Load a 150 hot core or ballistic tip and its probably going to be a complete failure on living animals. But loaded with that 110 barnes that was designed specifically for the bo and the velocitys it produces and its an over achiever and that's being conservative. Ive shot a couple does with 556s just to say I killed a deer with an ar back years ago and had a ar10 that I hunted with but it was just to heavy for hauling around the swamp so I sold it. This year with the black out was eye opening and I think next year is going to be a ar only year for crop damage season. Ive got a new ar10 built (not to carry but to shoot off a solid rest at long range. I also have the lower done on and some bullets and dies bought so far for my 6.5 Grendel project. To hunting with a gun I built myself with ammo I loaded myself is about like winning a drag race with the motor you built. sure I could just grab a bolt gun out of the safe or go down the the gun shop and buy a 270 or 243 and a couple boxes of corelocks but if I thought like that I would probably have never found this place. What I found here was a bunch that loved handloading, casting and even building and improving there guns. GUN PEOPLE. Personaly I could care less what sells at the gunshop or what the guy who owns the gunshop recommends. 50 percent of the guys here have forgot more then that idiot will ever know about guns.

It seems to me that marketing departments in the firearm industry play to current interests in the buying public. Some years ago the magnum craze was hot. More recently states with cartridge requirements are having an effect on current cartridge designs. What I think is good about it is bullet manufactures are there matching bullets to the velocities. For example my 300 Blackout isn't fast enough to expand a Hornaday 150 grain SP at 1950 FPS. But Hornaday and Barnes have 110 grain or so bullets designed to be effective on deer sized game. A max charge of Lil'gun behind that Barnes 110 TAC TX in 16'' barreled 300 BO will split water jug in two up the middle to same effect that my 32 Win Spl does. I'm not saying these two are equal on deer but with the right bullet they should be effective.

Lots of people here love the 45-70 and load their Marlins down to 1600 FPS or less. The 458 SOCOM is completely at home at this velocity with 300-400 grain boolits. I used to have a Marlin 45-70....twice.

I got my first AR15 over 25 years ago and it wasn't pretty back then either. I was shooting High Power with a M1 Garand and having a great time. I eventually had the LGS put a Douglas barrel in it and my scores went up. I was basicaly just out there to improve my shooting and not really to "win". BUT these AR's started showing up in service rifle and were cleaning everybody's clock. The M1A crowd didn't care if I out scored a few of them with the Garand. But it wasn't at all hard to get them to start trash talking those stupid little ARs even to the point of wanting to start a new class. They didn't want to admit it but they could see the writing on the target that the AR was here and here to stay.

[sharps4590]

Hickory, first of all I have to tell you that you are a doppelganger for a good friend of mine. When I first saw your picture I honestly thought you were Jim.

To your question, nahh..I don't think most of us old guys could be put into any one of those categories. Maybe all of them at one time or another but not just one. I have friends my age that can't wait for the next new thing to come out, some that are perfectly content with their '06, 270, 30-30, 308, or any of the other popular, more than adequate cartridges. Then there is a few like me who can't, or won't, stop digging around in the dust bin of history looking for those old, perfectly adequate cartridges which never achieved any level of popularity. Often their ballistics match or exceed the current crop, such as the Newton or Brenneke cartridges and, a huge number of common but unheard and/or unpopular cartridges do the same. Some were limited by the propellants available at the time of their introduction. Had Brenneke or Newton had IMR or H 4831, there never would have been a Roy Weatherby.

I like to think, whether it's true or not, that those of us who do that dust bin digging are performing a service. There's lots of old firearms out there in cartridges for which ammo is not available and through our work, many can be put back to use, if so desired. Or, a box or two of ammo can be had just to shoot it once in a while. I think we have to keep in mind that those old cartridges are the shoulders that today's cartridges are standing on.

We all have different interests and, thank God we do. Were it not for that, the first device propelling a projectile with black powder would never have seen the light of day. The self contained cartridge would only exist in the mind of someone. Smokeless powder would still smoke and because of smokeless powder, the projectile has progressed in leaps and bounds...as has that smokeless powder. Semi and full auto would still be relegated to Jules Verne like novels. The study of firearms and cartridges is immensely interesting and makes for a heck of a ride!!

[rintinglen]

saving the .327 and the 40 S&W, every cartridge I load for is pretty much as old as I am or older. I don't own a black rifle, I prefer round guns to bottom feeders, and Levers and Bolt guns to Autoloaders in rifles. That said, whatever floats your boat is all right by me.

[Traffer]

I just buy what is cheap. If it is a 6.5 creedmore or a 3040 kraig, just learn to like it. hahahah. But I do believe that the vast majority of hunters do not need a long range rifle. A 45-70 would work for most situations. People just want new stuff. Like cars, got to have a new style so people will want/buy a new one. I bought a new car in 1999 and still drive it. It is the only car I have driven in 20 years.

[DonH]

I, personally, think a cartridge or gun is bad or unnecessary just because they are new nor do I think an old one is good because it is old. Or vice versa. There are ways of getting things done that others are breathless over that don't appeal to me; longer range game-shooting for instance. What I do like are facts.
Call me a nerd if you like but I read ballistic tables. When a new round comes out I look for pertinent data like case capacity muzzle velocity, twist rate of barrels it is fired from. That tells me what range of bullet weights are compatible. Then I look at ballistic tables and compare to similer cartridges. This is a great BS filter. If a round or cartridge/gun combo appeal to me for a particular reason that's fine but I can make an informed decision.
A well-known gun writer wrote some years back, "Take a really good bullet of good sectional density and start it out at 2300-2400 fps and it will do the job." Look at the great old hunting rounds, British, European, etc and the amount of game killed with them and the statement is proven . Now a guy may have to be more Hunter than shooter....

[higgins]

They keep coming out with new cartridges so that reloaders will buy new powders "tailored" to a couple of the new cartridges, new bullets, etc.

[cainttype]

There’s nothing wrong with “New”.
Every cartridge mentioned in this whole thread was “New” at one time.

Being “Good” doesn’t guarantee acceptance, either... Good cartridges have disappeared while lesser offerings found success, so equating success with any perceived advantages is a mistake.

I’m in favor of shooting whatever makes you grin. 99.99% of the shooting sports is a game, you might as well enjoy it.

Bring the new stuff on... I’m sure I’ll find an occasional offering I think is great and/or better for certain applications than any “classic” available...
When a sport/pursuit becomes stagnant, it’s time is coming to an end.

[Texas by God]

Next to the .300 BO, the newest cartridges in my house is the 25-06 Rem. (1969) and the 22-250(1965)- but both of those date from the 1930’s as wildcats. I’m not interested in any newer ones, just older ones that I can cast for.

[big bore 99]

I've not found any need to go beyond my 45-70's. Light Unique loads for squirrel head shots and full house loads for just about anything else on the planet.

[murf205]

I just buy what is cheap. If it is a 6.5 creedmore or a 3040 kraig, just learn to like it. hahahah. But I do believe that the vast majority of hunters do not need a long range rifle. A 45-70 would work for most situations. People just want new stuff. Like cars, got to have a new style so people will want/buy a new one. I bought a new car in 1999 and still drive it. It is the only car I have driven in 20 years.

Your post reminded me of a range session last year. A guy at the bench next to me said he had found a real bargain in a 6.5 Creedmore and was going to sight it in. I was a T/C Compass and I have to admit that is was not the most aesthetically handsome piece of hardware I ever saw, but I didn't have a nickel in it so I kept my thoughts to myself and complemented him for scoring a $299 rifle. He opened a box of factory ammo and after he bore sighted it at a 50 yd target, I could tell that he knew enough not to start blazing away. 1st shot was on paper so he moved to his 100 yd target, which he had put up before he started shooting. (Good etiquette not to call a cease fire to move his target). He got it zeroed in 5 or 6 rounds and let the barrel cool for a good 30 min before shooting a 4 shot group into a bughole--and then another 4 shot bughole! Would a (insert our favorite cartridge here) have done the same? Maybe, maybe not. He was a pretty darned good stool shooter and echoed the same thing about the tried and true loadings but like a lot of us, he admitted being a sucker for a good deal.
A friend of mine's son fell victim for burning powder and he is now fully infected with the rifle bug. Of course that meant buying a 6.5 CM. He is really sold on the idea of short action rifles, I'm sure from reading the latest gun magazines. The part that I find comical is that he rides a 4 wheeler to within a couple hundred yds of a box blind and could have a rifle with the action as long as your leg and with 35 yr old muscles, he would never know the difference. But.....he is gaining experience and loading for everything he shoots so it is not in vain for sure. My point of all this is; the 6.5 CM would never have had to see the light of day if some big ammo/gun company had legitimized the 6.6/06 but it would not have sold because it is formed on that old fashion 30-06 case. So...let's enjoy the short action craze AND the 6.5 while it last. You know, this might just be the one that does.

[pmer]

The 6.5 Creedmoor is basically a .250-3000 Ackley Improved with the case neck expanded out to 6.5mm. The biggest difference is in the shoulder angle.

Im not totally mr new cartridge guy either as one of my top favorites is the 38-40 WCF. But I stunk that up a little bit by only shooting it in a G2 Contender carbine. I just think it's a neat cartridge. Shoots great in the Contender and reaches 41mag territory.

[drac0nic]

Newest rifle cartridge I own is 375 Winchester and I treat it like a 38-55. I don’t pick a cartridge and look for a rifle so chambered. I see a rifle I want and deal with what it is chambered for. Personally I don’t see any real difference in anything from the 243 until you get to a 30-06, for actual hunting use. It seems the #1 criteria for a cartridge nowadays is how it fits in a AR, oh and it has to have a catchy name. Yep, the 6.5creedmore is almost a 260 AND it fits in an AR. The 300BO is redo of 32-20 (with too fast a twist for my likes) but hey it fits in an AR! No matter to me, as I like old guns for my hunting. Glad they keep introducing new loads, but there ain’t much that hasn’t already been done. Besides, if we all liked the same thing it would be a pretty boring hobby, and not as many old rifles hitting the pawn shops to buy the newest flavor of the day.

The "fits in an AR" qualifier is probably one of the most important IMO. People are taking what are niche cartridges and making them into mainstream ones. That's fine and all because hey it's not my money. If someone gifted me a 300 or a 6.5 creed I'd take it. I may do a 300BO anyways because I like the idea of casting for it honestly.

I have no problem with the plethora of new cartridges. They do one thing very well - entice people to buy new guns to shoot them in and that keeps gunmakers in business. I do have my own thoughts about them and why people buy them.
The .350 Legend is a straight-walled round which works for deer hunters in my part of the country but what sells it is that in works in ARs. Quite a few of us have been chambering single shots for .357 Max for years. I have yet to see a .350 load from Winchester that beats what many get from the Max despite the Legend's much longer case.
The biggest joke, which no one mentioned yet is the 6.5 Creedmoor. I say joke, not because it is not a good cartridge but because of what most guys THINK it is. Listen to talk about this 6.5 and you may be convinced it's a Supermag ray gun. But look at ballistics. The 6.5 Creedmoor was intended to keep the high BC 6.5 bullets supersonic enough to allow good scores on paper targets from 200 yds to 1200 yes while kicking the shooter less than a .308. Oh, and fit a short action. It is loaded to higher psi than a .260 Rem to match that rounds performance. It does not stomp the ancient 6.5 x55 despite being loaded at least 16kpsi hotter but will eat throats out of barrels a heck of a lot quicker.
If guy read ballistic charts before they open their wallets a lot of new cartridges would never leave the factory. A little reading would reveal the .270, 7mm and .300 WSSMs to be nothing more than .270 Win, .280 Rem and .30-06 in different wrappers. I dare you to prove to me that you can shoot better in the field because they fit short actions. But people buy the hype before they buy the rifle. But it's all good because it's about being free to have fun in the flavor we choose. (BTW, the WSSM case when necked to .358 makes a potent round that fits Indiana's deer regs.)

It DOES get under my skin when a maker hypes a new round like .223 WSSM only to see throats vanish before the new owners eyes then stop making ammo leaving the guy stuck with the useless thing. But hey shooters, remember sayings like "if it sounds to good to be true it probably is" or "there is no such thing as free lunch"?

In terms of the creed it's a neat round but not really useful for most people. If someone's talking about shooting at distance yes but at least in northern IL that's a hard thing to come by in most cases. I know of a 600 yard range here and that's it. Lots of 25 yard indoor stuff and a few 1-200 yard ranges. May as well shoot .308 and save some dough. TBH I'm a huge fan of the 243 because it fits in an AR-10 nicely and I'm kind of recoil shy due to shoulder issues. Its biggest weakness is factory loadings are all hunting focused and almost nothing is match style/higher BC bullets.

The 350 Legend should have been a rimless 357 mag or max. Flat out. The idea they didn't make it shoot 35 rem or conventional revolver bullets is absurd and something that used a 357 mag/max case length would have been even better. I wouldn't be surprised to find out someone makes a version of it lightly modded that uses 357 bullets. I was trying to get a 357 Rimless mag barrel and just do that but the guy who had em on the net said he scrapped the tooling when I emailed him. Imagine how much of an equivalent it would be to a 32-20 then. The gun companies aren't afraid to make a long cylinder gun (they make one that shoots .410s ffs) why not make one that shoots this round?

The flavor of the week round I built was a 450 Bushmaster straight pull AR pistol. I had a very explicit reason for doing it and that's that I can throw a single shot sled in it and it's deer hunting legal as per the rules in IL. Figured I'd miff someone with that! Also it's a fun one to hand people much like a 460 or 500 is.