50 or 54 slow twist barrel?

[LAGS]

I agree with Joe.
You need to use what works for you.
All these Special Concoctions may work for you , but they are not universal for every rifle or shooter.
Same as powder charges or projectals.

I had three of the same rifles at one time and they all took different loads including lubes and swabbing of the bore to get the Same accuracy.
So find what you like and stick with it.
And sometimes simple is better.
But there is nothing wrong with you sharing what works for you.
It could Maybe something that will work for others.
But there is no Magical Universal load that works for everyone.

[megasupermagnum]

Stubborn is right. I really tried my best to get a PRB to shoot like you show in that picture. Maybe it would be wise for me to just say screw 54 caliber, and re-bore right to 58 in a slower twist. As for swabbing between shots, this is a huge plus for PRB vs a conical, as you can usually get away without it. I still found it best to swab every few shots, as I like to feel that last little bit of seating the ball, compressing the powder. If I don't feel that I know the crud has built up too much, and that shot is often a flier. I mostly stick to a grease lube, as my main purpose is hunting. Crisco is some amazing stuff, and I honestly think a guy could do just fine with nothing else.

I still cannot wrap my head around why a 1:48 twist cannot shoot as well as a 1:66, as long as the Ball RPM is similar. I would gladly hunt with 55 grains of powder if it shot as good as your 1:66 with 75 grains. I feel like there has to be some other compromise besides the twist rate alone. The rifling depth on mine are .004"-.005" deep. I never did measure my scout pistol, but by eye, I have no reason to suspect anything different.

I have no intentions of passing through Nebraska any time soon, but I'll keep it in mind.

[LAGS]

I don't want to get into a discussion about Aerodynamics on a Round ball cause I ain't no rocket sergeon.
But it only makes sense that a Round ball shot out of a rifle is like a baseball that is pitched.
You throw a ball and it flies fairly straight.
There will be a general spinning just because of friction from your fingers.
But is you intentionally put more spin on the ball it will curve in flight.
But if you throw it harder and apply the same amount of spin , the ball will curve more , or curve quickly at some point in it's flight.
So to me , 1:66 twist will fly straight.
A 1:48 slow velocity might curve a bit.
A 1:48 driven real fast might curve even more.
Now clyndrical objects like footballs and conical slugs are a whole different ball game

[indian joe]

I don't want to get into a discussion about Aerodynamics on a Round ball cause I ain't no rocket sergeon.
But it only makes sense that a Round ball shot out of a rifle is like a baseball that is pitched.
You throw a ball and it flies fairly straight.
There will be a general spinning just because of friction from your fingers.
But is you intentionally put more spin on the ball it will curve in flight.
But if you throw it harder and apply the same amount of spin , the ball will curve more , or curve quickly at some point in it's flight.
So to me , 1:66 twist will fly straight.
A 1:48 slow velocity might curve a bit.
A 1:48 driven real fast might curve even more.
Now clyndrical objects like footballs and conical slugs are a whole different ball game

Lags
I have a 45 cal flinter I built with a shallow groove 1:48 barrel - that thing shoots fine with lighter loads - max = 55 grains of FFFg( not so bad a load for a 45 anyways) - I won a major with it two years ago at 75 yards - add ten grains more powder and its all over the place - me no rocket sergeon either but I figure somewhere in that last ten grains the shallow rifling is no longer able to hold the patch/ball stable,

Other side of this deal ? we shot LEE minies quite successfully out of a CVA 45 with the 66 twist - but only if you really stoked it - (hadda turn a bit off the base plug so the skirts didnt blow - and if ya backed off the load at all they got the wobbles.

[rfd]

balls is balls and bullets is bullets.

1:48 twist has always and forever been an offshore gun compromise for bullets AND balls, which is the predominate part of this thread - the twist and the gun.

conicals - ergo, BULLETS - need the faster twists ... patched balls need the slower twists, which has been that way for patched balls for Hundreds of years of rifled barrels for flinters and then cappers alike.

during their day, and absolutely today, real american built traditional muzzleloaders that were designed to only propel patched round balls of .45 and above will ALL employ a slow rifling twist of about 1:60 thru 1:72 ... mostly dependent on bbl length and bore diameter.

think about what you will use that "trad muzzy" for, and then take a good clue from all of the above, then with the right gun and bbl twist, begin whatever loading adventures you deem necessary to part gnat wings at 100 meters or whatever traditional muzzleloader fun that piques yer fancy.

[megasupermagnum]

balls is balls and bullets is bullets.

1:48 twist has always and forever been an offshore gun compromise for bullets AND balls, which is the predominate part of this thread - the twist and the gun.

conicals - ergo, BULLETS - need the faster twists ... patched balls need the slower twists, which has been that way for patched balls for Hundreds of years of rifled barrels for flinters and then cappers alike.

during their day, and absolutely today, real american built traditional muzzleloaders that were designed to only propel patched round balls of .45 and above will ALL employ a slow rifling twist of about 1:60 thru 1:72 ... mostly dependent on bbl length and bore diameter.

think about what you will use that "trad muzzy" for, and then take a good clue from all of the above, then with the right gun and bbl twist, begin whatever loading adventures you deem necessary to part gnat wings at 100 meters or whatever traditional muzzleloader fun that piques yer fancy.

That brings me to the dilemma. I like the TC renegade, and I like the PRB, but they don't like each other. I also really like 54 caliber, it just seems right. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had bought 50 caliber guns, and had them all bored out to a slow twist 54 caliber from the start.

Why on earth did green mountain stop making 1" drop in barrels?

[brewer12345]

That brings me to the dilemma. I like the TC renegade, and I like the PRB, but they don't like each other. I also really like 54 caliber, it just seems right. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had bought 50 caliber guns, and had them all bored out to a slow twist 54 caliber from the start.

Why on earth did green mountain stop making 1" drop in barrels?

Well, either pick up a renegade in 50 and have it bored, or buy a hawken and pick up a green mountain barrel.

[brewer12345]

That brings me to the dilemma. I like the TC renegade, and I like the PRB, but they don't like each other. I also really like 54 caliber, it just seems right. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had bought 50 caliber guns, and had them all bored out to a slow twist 54 caliber from the start.

Why on earth did green mountain stop making 1" drop in barrels?

Well, either pick up a renegade in 50 and have it bored, or buy a hawken and pick up a green mountain barrel.

[megasupermagnum]

What I should do is quit my griping and just lay down money on what I've really wanted all along. A smooth bore SxS, jug choked 16 gauge flintlock. Rifles are cool, but shotguns are far more useful to me. Unfortunately it doesn't seem too many agree, as other than Pedersoli, nobody seems to make them. Nothing wrong with Pedersoli either, just not my cup of tea.

Sorry I stole your thread.

[rfd]

What I should do is quit my griping and just lay down money on what I've really wanted all along. A smooth bore SxS, jug choked 16 gauge flintlock. Rifles are cool, but shotguns are far more useful to me. Unfortunately it doesn't seem too many agree, as other than Pedersoli, nobody seems to make them. Nothing wrong with Pedersoli either, just not my cup of tea.

Sorry I stole your thread.

amen at last, brutha. in a single, no problemo, but as a SxS you just opened up yet another can o' worms and more frustration unless you have the serious coins to move forward and fulfill that new dream. do consider the ubiquitous and far easier to acquire 20 smoothie - the firearm that won the 18th century.

[megasupermagnum]

The Pedersoli 20 gauge would be the easy route. I would want to duck hunt with it, and 20 is pretty small. 16 is a big jump up, and I'm still undecided if the big 10 would be worth the extra width.

I've seen a couple names thrown around who sometimes build these. I've always been scared to call, as I have a feeling they would quote $15,000 or more.

I'm no woodworker, and the stock is what really scares me. I do have a cheap worn out 16 gauge SXS I could take barrels from. I was thinking more into building my own.

[Good Cheer]

TC rifling is so shallow that it cleans up with little metal removal. If you want a slower twist for round ball you could have a .55 or a .56.

Or, you could send your barrel to someone with an adjustable rifling machine and have your 48" twist rifling cut deeper. Was going to have that done on a .69 rifle.

[longcruise]

1:48 twist has always and forever been an offshore gun compromise for bullets AND balls, which is the predominate part of this thread - the twist and the gun.

I don't get where you are coming from regarding your "offshore" statement. 1:48 has been around for years including the Hawken brothers rifles and many others made before and after that point in time. Offshore rifles brought into the country during that same period would have been overwhelmingly smooth bores.

[rfd]

I don't get where you are coming from regarding your "offshore" statement. 1:48 has been around for years including the Hawken brothers rifles and many others made before and after that point in time. Offshore rifles brought into the country during that same period would have been overwhelmingly smooth bores.

yes, and much faster twists than 1:48. much will also depend on the bore and bbl length. offshore, as in arrivals today from italy and spain. then again, most of these guns have fair to little in common with the 18th or early 19th centuries. and in keeping with this "slow twist" thread, trad muzzleloaders for patched balls, not conicals.

[longcruise]

Ok, I see now what you are referencing.

[megasupermagnum]

Well I'll be, I finally got a Hunting level round ball load for my Renegade. Just when I was about to give up, I decided to try the .520" Hornady balls, with a duck canvas patch (from my old Carhartt pants), lubed heavily with Crisco, felt wad, and 90 grains of FFg Goex. Wouldn't you know, I put 3 shots close together for once. So I took 3 more, which made a nice 6 shot group about 2 1/4" CTC at 50 yards. I tried 110 grains and it looked just a bit worse, still much better than most combos. I tried 70 grains, and it shot just as good as 90 grains.

My happiness with that rifle was short lived as later on I decided to pull out the New Englander, and shot a good 2" group with pillow ticking and a .530" ball. I then substituted with a Twill patch again lubed with Crisco, felt wad, 70 grains FFg. With that load I put 5 shots in a group just under 1 1/2", call it 1 3/8". I'll be back out again tomorrow, but It looks like I may just have to give up on the renegade, as no matter how much time I spend with it, no matter now nice of sights I have on it, it has NEVER shot as good as my new Englander with its original sights. In fact, just before I broke out my NE, I shot my 54 caliber scout pistol. Even though the recovered patches looked rough, I put 5 shots at 3" CTC at 50 yards, and that's a 10" handgun!

Patches from the Renegade mostly look good, short of the loads I have to slam down the bore. For reasons I cannot explain, my Renegade is just a turd.

[longcruise]

Here's what a tc shop employee told a friend of mine back when it was still Thompson Center. My friend had a Renegade that would not shoot worth a darn. TC told him to send it back to be checked out. They returned it to him with a new barrel.

Now, they told him that given that TC button rifled their barrels they would be a bit smaller at one end because the button would heat up as it was drawn. And that they needed to be breached at the large end and that his had been breeched at the small end resulting in a reverse choke. The new barrel shot fine.

So, take that FWIW. I'm kinda doubtful myself.

[waksupi]

Here's what a tc shop employee told a friend of mine back when it was still Thompson Center. My friend had a Renegade that would not shoot worth a darn. TC told him to send it back to be checked out. They returned it to him with a new barrel.

Now, they told him that given that TC button rifled their barrels they would be a bit smaller at one end because the button would heat up as it was drawn. And that they needed to be breached at the large end and that his had been breeched at the small end resulting in a reverse choke. The new barrel shot fine.

So, take that FWIW. I'm kinda doubtful myself.

I've had too many good button rifled barrels to swallow that one.