need answers on .40 s&w

[mozeppa]

pictured below are 2 rows of .40 S&W cases ...7 in each row.

the top row consists of 7 "Win" cases ...all fired from the same STI single stack auto....all loaded by me with 8.1 grains of #5 powder and using the pictured projectiles which are 135 grain Federal "GUARD DOG DEFENSIVE" projectiles....o.a.l. = 1.125"
the bottom row is 7 cases of various factory loads fired from 4 or 5 other and different .40 autos...180 grain jacketed bullets.

now, here's what i've noticed ...

the shots were accurate enough...10" at 35 yards (not really aiming much as i'm still working on the load for it.)

they were NOT extremely loud nor did the pistol kick much. (about like a .38 spl....not too bad really.)

and when i fired all 7 off, it seemed like it cycled the gun just fine....all cases were inside a 5 foot circle by my right foot.


now to what puzzles me ...if you look carefully at the bottom row ...none seem to show any flattening of the primers at all.

but if you look at the top row, all 7 seem to look like they are as flat as they can possibly be !?

only found 1 projectile and it mushroomed nicely ....but only the top 60% of the projectile ...not all the way to the base.

with 8.1 grains of #5 ....am i loading these too hot? ...again i repeat... all the cases dropped literally at my foot.

your help is greatly appreciated!

[35remington]

A chronograph is your friend when trying to figure things out. Help yourself by taking one to the range next time you work up loads. Saves much speculation and questions.

Also helps diagnose what you are seeing as relevant or not.

[mozeppa]

hmmm....i agree now to get a good chrony...any suggestions?

[megasupermagnum]

A quick look through Accurate powders reloading manual show you are right at the starting load. So none of the bottom row were fired from your gun? Primer flattening can be a sign high pressure, but it better used as a comparison. You would need to shoot factory ammo in your own gun to compare.

Are you sure they are factory loads anyway? That second from bottom left is a Federal case with a plain copper primer. I can't remember a time when Federal didn't use a nickel plated primer. Currently Winchester is the only brand making non-plated primers.

[stubshaft]

Could be just softer primer cups. The last lot of CCI primers I bought were flattened more than the previous one without any changes to my load.

[35remington]

Even a budget chronograph is better than none at all. The Shooting Chrony brand is affordable and while basic is accurate enough to be very useful.

[popper]

Head space problem.

[trails4u]

The one on the bottom row, second from left, would probably bother me more than any from the top row. Hard to say for sure from a picture....but that looks like a bit of cratering. In my primary .40...an old S&W 4006 (yeah, I'm old school... my spent brass looks much like yours in the top row, and it chronos well under max with very manageable recoil and no other signs of pressure.

[HeavyMetal]

The load you've listed is below the starting load shown in Lee's Modern reloading, and the OAL is correct as well.

So I'll point out that Ken Waters, these days long gone to the great range in the sky, had long distrusted primers as indicators of pressure.

Instead Ken would fire a box of factory ammo in what ever caliber he was testing recording the base diameter of the cases before and after firing and use the maximum expansion reading as his " stop point" for each powder / bullet combo he was working with.

Of course he had to resize his case's every time he reloaded a powder increase and then run each powder increase over his chronograph making each of his articles very time consuming on his part, but very well loaded, please pardon the pun, with load data with out once referring to primer condition!

Now that I've bored you completely I realize you don't yet have the tools, and maybe the time, to do Ken's type of work so I'll make another suggestion which you may have already done and not mentioned: recheck your scale setting, powder measure settings and your caliper reading as any or all of these could be a "touch" and case load to be more than you thought, back checking never hurt!

Then when your crony of choice arrives not only will you be certain of your loads accuracy but your crony's readings will tell you if you have a "hot" lot of powder which can happen on rare occasions.

By the way when you crony gets here set it up using 22 long rifle ammo in the standard 40 grain bullet load, which should give you 900 FPS out of a 6 inch barrel pistol as a rule of thumb more or less FPS means your to close or to far away from the muzzle for correct reading, AKA reading the manual for your brand of crony before you set it up and understand it perfectly.

Good luck!

HM

[Peregrine]

hmmm....i agree now to get a good chrony...any suggestions?

What I recently picked up is the Shooting Chrony Beta. Quite happy with it, easy to use yet lots of useful options, packs away nicely...nothing to complain about.

I didn't have a chony at all before, and I waited way too long to get one. You really should have one if you're going to reload at all, it's just that when most people first jump in they're already spending so much money it's easy to justify holding off. But you really shouldn't.

[cwlongshot]

Primers alone are about the WORST way to see amounts if pressure. Sure they with pressures but WHAT PRESSURES?!? Diff manufacturers use different cup thicknesses so there is a variable. Federal for example, also is known to be THE SOFTEST & easiest to ignite of the primer manufacturers.

I have loaded those bullets and they are long for caliber so data is sketchy. IIRC you need to use 180g data??

Anyhow thats likely the issue. I like the bullet but quite loading them because of that. I find the Nosler 135 better and pretty cheap if I need a jword HP. My fav is HST. If you need jacketed watch American reloading for pulls and if you buy from them they offer rebates and return cust sales
For good percentages off. So costs are very reasonable. Dont worry about them being pulls. 98% are dead perfect visually.

I use more Power Pistol and Longshot for higher vel 40’s (I load 40 & 10 most of all my hand gun ammo) I like Blue Dot & 800X for top vel heavy loads. #7 & hs6 have also been great powders. Many many others work well
These are what I use.

Good luck

CW

[mozeppa]

thanks for the info guys! christmas is just ahead!

[roysha]

Well this is just a far out thought but here goes.

I don't know how much or what kind of crimp you are using, but if you are using a bit too much it is possible that the fellow that mentioned headspace might be close. I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about an STI handgun but if it is anything like my SIGs, RIA and my brothers HKs and HPs in 40 S&W, there is no throat whatsoever, just the chamber and then rifling. In order to shoot my favored LEE TC cast bullet, I had to throat the barrels in my SIGs and RIA so the cartridge would chamber enough to allow the gun to return to battery. My brother only shoots jacketed so it's not much of an issue for him.

So my thought on your flattened primers is this: with the 135 grain bullet and a fairly heavy crimp and/or slightly short case, I doubt the ogive of the bullet is touching anything when the round is chambered. Ergo, the FP drives the case a wee bit forward into the chamber and upon ignition the primer backs out a smidge. Then the case "slams" back against the slide causing the primer to flatten a bit. (doncha just love those technical words like "wee" and "smidge" and "a bit"?) I see this quite often in rifles when the reloader has not adjusted the size die properly, or especially amongst the AR crowd where a lot of fellows want to make sure the ammo will reliably function so they give it a bit of extra "room".

With the heavier bullet I would suspect the ogive is against the rifling, (once again assuming there is no throat) which in turn is supporting the entire cartridge in the chamber enough so the FP can't drive the case forward.

Just for kicks and grins perhaps you could load up a round with the heavy bullet and chamber it then examine it to see if there are any rifling marks on it. In my SIGs it was so bad I literally had to put the front of the slide against the bench and push in order to clear the jammed round.

I believe your loads are well within the realm of safety and although I own two chronographs, I'm not sure what is supposed to be accomplished by using one in search of the answer to your question. I dare say that 95% of my chronographing is because of the "curiosity factor" rather than any real analytical work. The other 5% is to shut up some folks that haven't a clue or to win a six-pack from.

My criteria for autoloader performance is dropping the brass in a 3 foot or so circle, the bullets hitting reasonably close to where I aim,( I'm the limiting factor here, not the gun or load) and total reliable function. As far as I'm concerned the difference of even 50fps within a given calibers normal operating range is irrelevant.

[35remington]

The purpose of a chronograph is to potentially rule out or include excessive velocity/pressure as a factor in what he is seeing and help narrow the list of possible contributing causes. The chronograph helps confirm whether the loads are within the realm of safety and reduces the need for guesswork and what we believe to be true by giving information as opposed to lack of same..

It is a very helpful thing in load development and left out too often. Load development is by definition analytical work and the velocity developed is a key part of analysis.

[mozeppa]

(doncha just love those technical words like "wee" and "smidge" and "a bit"?)

you made me laugh!

before really getting in to pistols full on...i shot professional archery.
at the club we had several members with all kinds of shooting styles ...i was "free style unlimited"

i had many friends that shot "bare bow style" (no sights and finger release.)

THEY used those terms alot!

a tad off = the arrow was in the paper ...but not in a scoring ring.
a smidgen off = the arrow was in the straw bale and not on paper at all.

and lastly... if you were a skoash off ...that means the hunt for your arrows might take a while.

[cwlongshot]

I doubt crimp has anything to do with this in the 40. Its a taper crimp anyhow and not as firm as a heavy roll. If your bullet is into the rifling thats another problem entirely and absolutely yes it will raise pressures.

Im assuming knowledge of such basics in my suggestions. Maybe I should reflect on this we have no idea of the knowledge base of all loaders posting here. But I didnt read OP was a newbie. Not wanting or meaning to “talk down” to anyone. We are not born all Knowing and the good lord gave us two eyes two ears and two hands but only one mouth. So looking listening and doing should be first and second to advising. BUT questions are GOOD!

Where cases fall from a hand gun is a bit less telling compared to a bench and bag fired rifle... But yes it tells a tale. Primer flatness tells nothing at all really here. The 40 operates under 35k. A sp primer might show some cratering simply cause its not made to work under that pressure. YES its safe but most places a SP primer will be used will be sub 20k. Primer cups are all over the map as far as durability thickness. Guns they are fired in are hugely different as well. Glocks for example with there generous chambers handle slightly higher better as they have a bit more room. BUT there breech face with that oblong striker leaves room for primer Flow something not nearly never seen in a 1911 based firearm.

CW

[mozeppa]

okay got the chrony......1330 fps is the average speed....this'll work!

[phantom22]

Could be soft primers. Also, how many times has the brass been reloaded? Maybe it could be slightly large primer pockets?