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Thread: Is the sacrifice of Jesus over rated?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I will tell you the second commandment that is not a sin..... Just look at the ten commandments and ask yourself. Which of these is not truly wrong.
    Which commandment is "wrong"? You don't seem to understand that God didn't give us a whimsical list of arbitrary hoops to jump thru, it's "liberal" politicians, some school teachers, some religionists and other people controllers who do that! God simply gives us the best list of things we can measure our own lives and hearts against.

    You seem to want to measure other men against a "sin" list of your own making and, in that, you duplicate the errors of the pharisees of Jesus' day; that's bad spiritual juju my friend.

    Bottom line, making judgement of God's instructions is way above my pay grade. Unlike your RCC priest's and their traditions, I don't make distinctions about large or small sins because I know God judges men's heart because that's what leads to sinful acts! The rules/Commandments of God that you don't like simply tell us the standards we should all be living by.

    Contrary to (what I know of) RCC teachings, if we follow the "Church's" rules perfectly but do it without a right heart we'll get nothing spiritual. (See Jer 17:9-10; Mk 7:21-22)

    As to which Commandment is "wrong", I'm not touching it; you're a trained catechism teacher and I'm not so you'll have to make that judgement yourself. But be careful .... !!
    Last edited by 1hole; 03-09-2020 at 01:20 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Let us start with the first Commandment that God showed me (not told) to be incorrect.

    Keep the Sabbath day holy.

    God cares little for calendars they are a thing of Man. Tis the seasons that mark God's time. God cares not which day or days you look to him with praise. Better we make each day holy. Is one day a week enough and if one day a week is enough why isn't one day a month enough. It is a Bible thing, Abrahamic. Followed by Jews, Muslims and Christians.

    It is no sin if I work on the Sabbath, don't go to church, mosque or temple. Religions fought over which day of the week is holy, Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

    Why does the calendar have Sunday as the first day of the week if it is really the last day of the week?

    It does help churches, mosques and temples collect offerings if there is a special day each week for them.

    Tim
    sunday became the first day of the week when Christ rose from the dead.. all of creation was finished on the seventh day , it's why we have a week of 7 days , every other reference of the calendar has a reference to the heavens , year,around the sun, month moon around the earth, week creation

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Which commandment is "wrong"? You don't seem to understand that God didn't give us a whimsical list of arbitrary hoops to jump thru, it's "liberal" politicians, some school teachers, some religionists and other people controllers who do that! God simply gives us the best list of things we can measure our own lives and hearts against.

    You seem to want to measure other men against a "sin" list of your own making and, in that, you duplicate the errors of the pharisees of Jesus' day; that's bad spiritual juju my friend.

    Bottom line, making judgement of God's instructions is way above my pay grade. Unlike your RCC priest's and their traditions, I don't make distinctions about large or small sins because I know God judges men's heart because that's what leads to sinful acts! The rules/Commandments of God that you don't like simply tell us the standards we should all be living by.

    Contrary to (what I know of) RCC teachings, if we follow the "Church's" rules perfectly but do it without a right heart we'll get nothing spiritual. (See Jer 17:9-10; Mk 7:21-22)

    As to which Commandment is "wrong", I'm not touching it; you're a trained catechism teacher and I'm not so you'll have to make that judgement yourself. But be careful .... !!
    So with all the weasel words, did you say that not performing worship on the Sabbath is a sin?

    Maybe you said you don't know?

    It is hard to tell, you are as clear as a politician.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by a danl View Post
    sunday became the first day of the week when Christ rose from the dead.. all of creation was finished on the seventh day , it's why we have a week of 7 days , every other reference of the calendar has a reference to the heavens , year,around the sun, month moon around the earth, week creation
    Actually the 7 day week existed before for Genesis was written, it is actually the time between the changes in the phases of the Moon. The seven-day week originates from the calendar of the Babylonians, which in turn is based on a Sumerian calendar dated to 21st-century B.C. Seven days corresponds to the time it takes for each phase of a lunar cycle. New Moon, First Quarter, Full Moon, Last Quarter.

    Tim
    Last edited by dtknowles; 03-09-2020 at 09:38 PM.
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Actually the 7 day week existed before for Genesis was written, ....
    Wow; before Genesis? So, just to make sure, you believe the Babbelonins started a calendar and maintained a precise account of days starting from their own day one of creation so Moses and Gregorie could use it as a benchmark for Saturday when it was needed some thousands of years later? ROFL!

    And it's you who demands massive province before you'll except the resurrection, as if all the written records and circumstantial evidence of history we have isn't overwhelming!

  6. #106
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    Yes, before genesis was written.

    The Babylonian calendar is not some miracle that requires extraordinary evidence but we have more than hearsay evidence of its existence and nature. There are multiple physical evidences.

    http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa...pdf/130159.pdf

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar

    http://www.ancientpages.com/2016/11/...000-years-ago/

    I can't understand why you find the existence of ancient calendars so surprising,

    https://www.ancient-egypt-online.com...-calendar.html

    Why wouldn't people have calendars 5 thousand years ago.

    All the written records of the resurrection were written hundreds of years after the event. We have actual copies of the ancient calendars from the time they were used not some stories about them.

    How come the Dead Sea Scrolls don't contain anything about the resurrection. They contain other New Testament works and other works from the times of king Herod.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  7. #107
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    People need to put the Herodian era in perspective. Jesus did not live in some ancient time. He, Jesus lived at the beginning of Modern Times. Jesus lived in the Current Epoch. It was a era of wide spread use of the written word. People conversed in multiple languages, they were multilingual because intercontinental trade was common. We area talking thousands of years after the Egyptians built pyramids. 600 years after the first Roman Empire. 900 years after the Mycenaean Greeks. 1200 years after the Trojan war. 400 years after the Spartans. We have contemporary accounts of all of these thing. The were written about by the people who experienced them first hand. We have almost no first hand account of anything regarding Jesus. Nothing written while he was alive that mentions Jesus.

    Even Herod's order to slaughter infants is not recorded in any contemporary record. Where is the testimony of the people who witnessed these events. The lapse is so flagrant that apologists felt a need to explain.

    https://www.christiancourier.com/art...hlehem-infants

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  8. #108
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    1) You leap to illogical interpretations. I didn't even hint that calenders didn't exist long before Moses. I was/am laffing at your determined assumption that those calendars were based on keeping track of what would become the Hebrew or Christian sabbath because it's a ludicrous idea.

    2) You'll have to tell us which "New Testament" books were found with the dead sea scrolls because I know of none and doubt anyone but you do.

    3) Jesus worked only about 3 years. He grew up in a very unimportant village in the north of Israel, itself a small back water part of the Roman Empire. His work started quite small and never grew to huge proportions. His king Herod was no more than a puppet who ruled at the pleasure of Rome so I doubt that much of what even he did got did got written up in the dead sea scrolls.

    Jesus himself lived in poverty. He started no wars, he deposed no kings, he started no large public works so it's hardly worth noting there are no long scrolls or huge carved stones mentioning his mighty work - except history.

    It is well worth mentioning that the N.T. was written and widely distributed within the living memories of both the authors AND many of its readers. You should consider that when you (wrongly) say there are "no first hand stories" to his work and resurrection.
    Last edited by 1hole; 03-10-2020 at 04:24 PM.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    actually the 7 day week existed before for genesis was written, it is actually the time between the changes in the phases of the moon. The seven-day week originates from the calendar of the babylonians, which in turn is based on a sumerian calendar dated to 21st-century b.c. Seven days corresponds to the time it takes for each phase of a lunar cycle. New moon, first quarter, full moon, last quarter.

    Tim
    wow!!!!!!!!! Where'd you get that info from and why do you believe that rather than the bible? Did some other document come along to prove that rather than the bible ?

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    1) You leap to illogical interpretations. I didn't even hint that calenders didn't exist long before Moses. I was/am laffing at your determined assumption that those calendars were based on keeping track of what would become the Hebrew or Christian sabbath because it's a ludicrous idea.

    2) You'll have to tell us which "New Testament" books were found with the dead sea scrolls because I know of none and doubt anyone but you do.

    3) Jesus worked only about 3 years. He grew up in a very unimportant village in the north of Israel, itself a small back water part of the Roman Empire. His work started quite small and never grew to huge proportions. His king Herod was no more than a puppet who ruled at the pleasure of Rome so I doubt that much of what even he did got did got written up in the dead sea scrolls.

    Jesus himself lived in poverty. He started no wars, he deposed no kings, he started no large public works so it's hardly worth noting there are no long scrolls or huge carved stones mentioning his mighty work - except history.

    It is well worth mentioning that the N.T. was written and widely distributed within the living memories of both the authors AND many of its readers. You should consider that when you (wrongly) say there are "no first hand stories" to his work and resurrection.
    You say that the N.T. was written and widely distributed within the living memories of the reported authors. Do you have evidence that is the case? If indeed the seemly biblical text found in Qumran Cave 7 is actually as believed by some to be Mark 6:52–53 then we have a contemporary copy of eye witness to Jesus' life if not his resurrection. What first hand accounts do you know of, of the resurrection. Did anyone report in their own words seeing the dead Jesus come to life.

    Did the resurrected Jesus, walk among the general population or did he appear and disappear privately. Where was he when he was not with his disciples.

    I did not say that those calendars were based on keeping track of what would become the Hebrew or Christian sabbath. Yes, that would be a ludicrous idea. I am saying that the idea of a 7 day week precede the writing of Genesis. A 7 day week was not something created by the Old Testament.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by a danl View Post
    wow!!!!!!!!! Where'd you get that info from and why do you believe that rather than the bible? Did some other document come along to prove that rather than the bible ?
    Yes, many other documents have been discovered that show that the 7 day week used by the Sumarians and Babylonians was based on the phases of the moon and was being used before Genesis was written. I provided some helpful links and if you do the research you can find much more evidence. These people kept much better records than the Hebrews and Israelites.

    http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa...pdf/130159.pdf

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar

    http://www.ancientpages.com/2016/11/...000-years-ago/

    Tim
    Last edited by dtknowles; 03-10-2020 at 09:54 PM.
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  12. #112
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    This is interesting although I will always believe that the key to "knowing" is "believing"-not "knowing" first and then "believing".
    https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017...e-resurrection
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselhorses View Post
    This is interesting although I will always believe that the key to "knowing" is "believing"-not "knowing" first and then "believing".
    https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017...e-resurrection
    Thanks for the link. This is the discussion I would imagine we would have here but it would be a dialog.

    The author quotes Prof. Jonathan Morrow

    "So when it comes to the Resurrection, we say 'Well, how do we know Jesus existed?' Some people even doubt that. The fact is, we have far more sources for Jesus of Nazareth than we do for many historical figures in the first century. We have at least 18. Twelve of those are non-Christian sources."

    Being the doubting Thomas I am, I want to see and read those sources but they are not listed in the story. I have asked members here to point me to such sources as I have searched and not found them. Why no footnote for these sources.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  14. #114
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    As a man, God in the flesh, Jesus suffered as any other human subjected to all the brutality that Rome could mete out.

    Shiloh
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    "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" - J. Stalin

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