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Thread: Is the sacrifice of Jesus over rated?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    I get what you mean. It is sort of like Superman charging into a hailstorm of bullets - it ain't exactly brave when you know you're bullet proof.
    Perhaps Jesus knew he would come back to life, but I think you have to admit he did die. Perhaps the knowledge that He would come back to life somewhat diminishes the sacrifice...
    For the Christian, we all believe that once we die we will be with God. Does anyone want to volunteer to be stripped naked, have their flesh whipped off their back and then be nailed to some boards for a slow, certain death? Not very many will because the experience is very real. Knowing that he would come back to life did not diminish Jesus' humiliation and pain.

    How many would stand back while their son was stripped naked, have their flesh whipped off their back and then be nailed to some boards for a slow, certain death? Why not? They'll be with Jesus when it's all over, right?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    ..... Knowing that he would come back to life did not diminish Jesus' humiliation and pain.

    How many would stand back while their son was stripped naked, have their flesh whipped off their back and then be nailed to some boards for a slow, certain death? Why not? They'll be with Jesus when it's all over, right?
    Well put. Outlandish contemplations of pompous arm chair "interlecsuls" trying to minimise Jesus would immediately be reversed if they were facing what he faced in our place.
    Last edited by 1hole; 12-18-2019 at 01:31 PM.

  3. #63
    Gentlemen, please give weight to my use of the word "perhaps" in my post. Understand that I do not necessarily believe that knowledge of rising from the dead undid any of the pain. Actually I could make the counter argument that the agony in the garden proves that this knowledge made it worse. Christ knew what He was in for and dreaded it. My post was intended to entertain the idea for the sake of argument.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    ... Christ knew what He was in for and dreaded it. My post was intended to entertain the idea for the sake of argument.
    Sooo .... it worked.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Well put. Outlandish contemplations of pompous arm chair "interlecsuls" trying to minimise Jesus would immediately be reversed if they were facing what he faced in our place.
    I assumed that the vast majority of us would suffer torture and death to save our children...so maybe I was wrong about that. Thus my opinion that the death of Jesus is no more of a sacrifice than most mortal men would endure to achieve salvation for their children. But if you believe most men would not save their children, then I understand why your opinion is different.

    BTW, I am grateful for His sacrifice as it is the only way I could ever have a chance for eternal life. But I know both my father and mother would have died to save me as well. They would have died with no expectation of going to back to Heaven as Jesus had. So, in my eyes, it would have been a greater sacrifice than that of Jesus. Jesus died to save billions of His children....my parents would die to save one. My perspective is different but it is an honest one. If I am one of those "arm chair "interlecsuls", so be it. God gave us intelligence and choice for a reason. If He wanted puppets, He could have done so. Regrettably, most churches want puppets as it makes things so much easier for them...God is different.
    Don Verna

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  6. #66
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    dverna, the real question then becomes, would one of your parents have died to save a strangers kid, one whose family even hated your "kind"?

    For while we where YET sinners, Christ died for us!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    dverna, the real question then becomes, would one of your parents have died to save a strangers kid, one whose family even hated your "kind"?

    For while we where YET sinners, Christ died for us!
    I believe the question is incorrect because we are all God’s children.

    I can speak for myself....I would not undergo what Jesus suffered to save a child I did not know....I am too selfish.

    A more relevant question is...would any man do it to save mankind? As Jesus did? I believe there are some men who would. That is worth considering is it not?
    Don Verna

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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Sooo .... it worked.


    Yup. Just didn't want people getting the wrong impression.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Just wanted to add something. One of the things that bothers me the most is what I perceive as the injustice of God....let me explain.

    No one can enter heaven unless they accept Jesus as their Savior. My father dismissed God and religion completely, so he will not be saved. Yet, my father was a very good man. My father commanded my respect and obedience by his presence and intelligence. He never once struck us, but guided us with his example and strength of character. He is why I became an atheist.

    He came from Italy in 1930 not being able to speak English and became moderately successful without ever cheating his customers. His rejection of God started much earlier

    When he was 12, the local priest approached my grandmother. The small town in Italy they lived in only provided up to a grade 6 education. The priest saw potential in my dad and convinced my grandmother to send him to the provincial capital to attend the Roman Catholic monastery. He would be educated and become a priest. My grandmother was torn about needing her son to help support the family ( my grandfather had died years earlier), and the honor of having her son become a priest. She decided to send him to the monastery.

    After the third day at the monastery, my Dad waited until nightfall, scaled the walls and walked 40 km home in the dark. The story he told was that people at the monastery had stolen the socks my grandmother had knit for him. Plus he was unhappy and wanted to come home. My Dad told me this when I was a child of 10 or 11 when I asked him why we did not attend church. His message was, “ There are bad people in churches”

    In retrospect, it is highly likely he had been sexually molested. The “men of God” he trusted had violated that trust....and God had not protected him. For a boy of 12, it was devastating. I now understand his feelings about the Roman Catholic Church and God.

    He passed 40 years ago of cancer I did not weep until 10 years ago. I was at the Grand American. A severe storm rolled in and the shoot was suspended. My two best friends (both Christians that helped me find Christ) and I took refuge in the motor coach and a TV show about cancer came on. Started talking about my Dad and I lost it. Had to get out and I sat in the downpour for 20 minutes crying like a baby. Decades of loss poured out of me.

    It bothers me that my Dad will not be granted eternal life. He is the best man I have ever known
    don, i'm truly sorry , that is a sad story however, there is a verse that tells us that 'all things work for the good to those who love the lord according to his purpose' don this could have a big impact for you , sometimes we may never see the good but assuredly in may even happen in the next generation . god is good , always.

  10. #70
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    look at it this way,,,,,,,,, we had a debt that we couldn't pay ,,, and Jesus paid the debt that He didn't owe..............all on and for our behalf.when He died on that cross he not only suffered the agonizing pains at the cross, He also suffered our pains that we deserved to suffer in hell. to me i will never be able while here on this earth be able to pay him back for what He has done for me alone, except praise Him and show Him a humble thankfulness by spreading the gospel of Christ so that others can enjoy Him as well. EPHESIANS 2 vs 8/9

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by a danl View Post
    look at it this way,,,,,,,,, we had a debt that we couldn't pay ,,, and Jesus paid the debt that He didn't owe..............all on and for our behalf.when He died on that cross he not only suffered the agonizing pains at the cross, He also suffered our pains that we deserved to suffer in hell. to me i will never be able while here on this earth be able to pay him back for what He has done for me alone, except praise Him and show Him a humble thankfulness by spreading the gospel of Christ so that others can enjoy Him as well. EPHESIANS 2 vs 8/9
    Exactly what debt did you have that you could not pay back? When did you accrue that debt?

    Tim
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Exactly what debt did you have that you could not pay back? When did you accrue that debt?

    Tim
    If you really did teach the Bible way back in the day, you should know the answer to this question. So why ask it? To make a point, start an argument, or get people all worked up? If you don't know the answer to your question, then maybe you turned your back on something you truly don't understand.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    If you really did teach the Bible way back in the day, you should know the answer to this question. So why ask it? To make a point, start an argument, or get people all worked up? If you don't know the answer to your question, then maybe you turned your back on something you truly don't understand.
    I know what I was taught to teach and I came to understand it was a lie. I don't believe in Original Sin. We each are born with a clean slate and really cannot sin until we come to the age of awareness for each wrong we might do. A child that does not understand what they are doing wrong is not sinning.

    I asked the question to try and get the person I asked it of to think deeper, think deep theology instead of just accepting what the Bible says. There is no depth of thinking if you just parrot back something from a book without being able to understand the underlying concept and question the concept. Questioning a concept is not rejecting it. Explore the idea and if then you accept it, you really own it.

    Do you accept the idea of Original Sin? Can you explain what debt we are born with? Can you explain why each person is not born with a clean slate? Do you believe we are born predisposition to evil? Do you believe we are born bad and are only good if we come to Jesus? Why do you believe that? Can you explain it without resorting to the bible? Is your belief just because of the Bible?

    I taught the Roman Catholic Church Catechism that baptism removes original sin to the degree that what remains is not sinful but the sinful nature that remains is real sin. I taught that until I had an epiphany that revealed to me that there is no Original Sin and that people are not predisposition to evil, it is learned, learned from society.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  14. #74
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    Tim,
    I have issues with "original sin"....it certainly was not the result of Adam and Eve. It occurred in heaven with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. And the Lord permitted it to happen. Above my pay scale to comprehend why...but no other conclusion makes sense if someone believes God is omniscient.

    The other issue I have is how the Bible presents it. It casts God a wrathful, unjust and unloving God. The sins of Adam and Eve are used to punish mankind for eternity. Nothing "just" or "loving" about that. IMHO, God knew He screwed up on that one. But my thoughts on that and what He did to correct it are for another time.

    The church I attend is an Evangelical E-Free. It teaches we are born basically evil and sinners with little "goodness" in us. I do not buy it completely....my own experience tells me we have the capacity for both. Watch a pack of wolves...they have the capacity of immense love and caring for those in their pack....yet will rip apart someone from another pack. Of course, man is not as "good" as a wolf...many cheat, steal, abuse and even kill members of our family.
    Don Verna

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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Tim,
    I have issues with "original sin"....it certainly was not the result of Adam and Eve. It occurred in heaven with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. And the Lord permitted it to happen. Above my pay scale to comprehend why...but no other conclusion makes sense if someone believes God is omniscient.

    The other issue I have is how the Bible presents it. It casts God a wrathful, unjust and unloving God. The sins of Adam and Eve are used to punish mankind for eternity. Nothing "just" or "loving" about that. IMHO, God knew He screwed up on that one. But my thoughts on that and what He did to correct it are for another time.

    The church I attend is an Evangelical E-Free. It teaches we are born basically evil and sinners with little "goodness" in us. I do not buy it completely....my own experience tells me we have the capacity for both. Watch a pack of wolves...they have the capacity of immense love and caring for those in their pack....yet will rip apart someone from another pack. Of course, man is not as "good" as a wolf...many cheat, steal, abuse and even kill members of our family.
    While sin entered the world through Adam's transgression, people are only held accountable for their own sins. How the sinful nature is passed from one generation to another is not clear. But all you have to do is watch a child behave selfishly (they all do it) and you'll see the sinful nature in its early stages (sin is nothing but selfishness).

    The Bible does not teach the total depravity of man. It actually gives many examples of the opposite and even Jesus recognizes man's natural capacity for doing good. Man is less of what he could be because of his sinful nature.

  16. #76
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    No indeed matter a fact it needs to be told more now a days than ever before

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The Bible does not teach the total depravity of man. It actually gives many examples of the opposite and even Jesus recognizes man's natural capacity for doing good. Man is less of what he could be because of his sinful nature.
    Calvanist's "Total Depravity" doesn't mean what secular men usually take it to mean. In context, total depravity is referring to the spiritual nature of men, not the moral; many lost people do many good things! (I say "Calvinist's" because Calvin didn't say that.)

    Spiritual depravity means there is nothing in man's nature that causes him to (rightfully) think about spiritual things. Total Spiritual Depravity is a part of what drives some non-believers to read scripture, misread its message and then argue against both God and his Bible. Sadly, we get a lot of that right here and they call it "deep thinker's theology"!

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    While sin entered the world through Adam's transgression, people are only held accountable for their own sins. How the sinful nature is passed from one generation to another is not clear. But all you have to do is watch a child behave selfishly (they all do it) and you'll see the sinful nature in its early stages (sin is nothing but selfishness).

    The Bible does not teach the total depravity of man. It actually gives many examples of the opposite and even Jesus recognizes man's natural capacity for doing good. Man is less of what he could be because of his sinful nature.
    I disagree my friend. Genesis 3:16 - 3:19 Man has suffered due to the sins of Adam and Eve. And death entered the world because of their sin...not ours.
    Don Verna

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  19. #79
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    This whole thing with "original sin" parallels an abusive family relationship. You've got a child who has been taught that he/she was born a filthy piece of muck, and will always be, unless they shape up. That kid will try everything to please the abuser, often their father, and most times will feel love towards the abuser. They're taught that they should love and respect someone who treats them like dirt.....cause that kid was born bad, it's all their fault.

    But, that's what the bible teaches. The entirety of humanity is cursed, saddled with the responsibility of cleaning up the dirt that Adam and Eve made. Born sinners and will be dealt with as such, unless we confess to all our sins, even if we don't know how we sinned. We must have sinned though cause that's what we do, we're born sinners.......and that's a loving and fair god that should be loved and respected, even when that loving and fair god lays into us with the belt because of our transgressions.

    Many believers will flat out tell you your house burned down, or your dog died cause you sinned. It all appears to be a control mechanism and it's created the best example of Stockholm Syndrome you'll ever see in which the victims form a sympathetic bond with the very one which is abusing them. That, or a whole lot of people are into being treated like a filthy piece of muck......either one is somewhat disturbing.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Tim,
    I have issues with "original sin"....it certainly was not the result of Adam and Eve. It occurred in heaven with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. And the Lord permitted it to happen. Above my pay scale to comprehend why...but no other conclusion makes sense if someone believes God is omniscient.

    The other issue I have is how the Bible presents it. It casts God a wrathful, unjust and unloving God. The sins of Adam and Eve are used to punish mankind for eternity. Nothing "just" or "loving" about that. IMHO, God knew He screwed up on that one. But my thoughts on that and what He did to correct it are for another time.

    The church I attend is an Evangelical E-Free. It teaches we are born basically evil and sinners with little "goodness" in us. I do not buy it completely....my own experience tells me we have the capacity for both. Watch a pack of wolves...they have the capacity of immense love and caring for those in their pack....yet will rip apart someone from another pack. Of course, man is not as "good" as a wolf...many cheat, steal, abuse and even kill members of our family.
    original sin refers to mankind not angels. adam was the first man who was responsible to God for all of mankind , when he sinned we inherited that sin just as if we ourselves did. we didn't have any choice in the matter just as we didn't have a choice to the color of our eyes or hair. just look at ones heart , as it says in genesis "our heart is only evil continually"....don't blame God for the sin , SATIN is the one who deserves the blame, he caused it from the very beginning when he wanted to be greater than God.. i"ll say this with my own words that God "drained the swamp in heaven " when He cast satin and his followers out of heaven.
    Last edited by a danl; 03-07-2020 at 01:57 PM.

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