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Thread: Is the sacrifice of Jesus over rated?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    Is the sacrifice of Jesus over rated?

    Jesus “died” on the cross for our sins. But God cannot die....Jesus certainly suffered but He did not die.

    IMHO, many Christians seem to over rate His sacrifice.

    When I was an atheist, I had no illusions of everlasting life, yet I would have died to save my children. I think every decent person would do the same.

    Jesus “died” knowing he would not die....not much sacrifice there. Jesus “died” to provide a path to salvation for billions of God’s children. We would die to save one of our children.

    Should we be grateful that He gave us a way to salvation....CERTAINLY!!

    Was it much of a sacrifice....not in the big scheme of things.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  2. #2
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    I believe that before his death he paid the penalty for all of our sins. To sweat, as it were drops of blood means an intense agony that death may have been a relief from. This included the mental anguish of all that all of humanity has done.
    Many of us would take a bullet to extend our childrens', spouses or grandchildrens' lives. To be nailed upright, left to hang until we could no longer lift ourselves enough to breath sounds very different to me. Understanding the whole scheme of things does not diminish the overall suffering. While he did not die eternally, his physical body did. Since none of us could duplicate it, it must have been an awesome thing indeed.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    His was the ultimate sacrifice, he who was without sin, scourged, beaten, mocked, and crucified.

    God perhaps can not die, but Jesus, as his son and as a human being, certainly did die. And was RAISED!

    He is RISEN! He is Risen indeed. Death oh where now is thy sting.

    He did die, was laid to rest in a tomb and on the third day was resurrected. Showed himself to his believers and disciples.
    But said touch me not as I have not yet ascended to my father.

    So "Over rated" not in my book.

    Don't get me wrong Dverna, I like you, and I like a lot of the threads you post, the thoughts you come up with.
    I just think you have not got this one quite straight in your head yet.

    And I am no scholar, bible or otherwise. But I firmly believe that his blood was shed for me, that it washes my sins away, makes it possible for me to ascend as he did. I could be wrong, but I do not think I am this time.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


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    Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. Jesus the man lived a life just like we do. Jesus the man died a horrible death before being tortured first. His fear before being arrested was real, his pain was real and his death was real.

    One reason that people are made in the image of God is so we can understand him. God the Father paid the price of having to watch the mistreatment and death of his son. Do you think this was an easy thing to do even though he knew the outcome? I'd rather be beaten and crucified than having to watch one of my sons undergo such torment even if I knew they'd be with the Lord afterwards.

    The sacrifice that Jesus and his Father made was very real and very costly.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    Is the sacrifice of Jesus over rated?

    Many lessons are connected to the death of Jesus, IMO.
    Humanity may never achieve a sin-free existence, especially when it insists on elevating to positions of power a few to rule over the many.
    Jesus’s own people betrayed him when he was brought before Pontius Pilate; Pilate asked the crowd gathered in audience to claim Jesus as one of their brethren, and offered Jesus a reprieve from death if they would but remove him from the confines of the city and relieve Pilate of the complaints about Jesus’s sermons. No one stepped in to prevent the sentence of death by crucifixion. Jesus told Pilate he was not afraid to die. Pilate was left no choice at that point but to send him to his death, lest he appeared weak before the public he ruled over. And that was that.
    The little guy versus the government behemoth...doesn’t that sound all too familiar?
    R/Griff

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."
    So, do you consider yourself on of the "we too"?
    Dare I say Nope.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master


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    I have no doubt that Jesus was crucified and that He "died" for our sins. The part of Him that was man, would die at some point or His mission would not have been realized. And I presume His death was not destined to be a peaceful one, or it would not have had the impact needed to make us grateful.

    He was fearful and His pain was real. The part of Him that was man would have felt the pain.

    The question is just how much of a "sacrifice" was it?

    Most atheists, with no expectation of resurrection or eternal life, would die just as gruesome a death to save one child. They would look at their death as the end but accept the ultimate sacrifice.

    Jesus, was part God. His existence would not end on the cross. He would not "die". He would make His sacrifice to save the billions of His children yet to come. Any loving father would do the same for a lot less.

    Or maybe I am looking at this incorrectly?
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I think to truly understand that question, one would have to ask him before he was crucified.

    That Jesus knew what was coming is clear. He asked that this cup be passed from him.
    But how much did he know of what would come after his death? How much of those plans did God the father confide or withhold?
    Probably a question that can never be answered. But even if he had an idea that this was the plan. How much surety could he have that all would turn out as planned?

    None of which diminishes his sacrifice in any way IMO.

    Put the shoe on the other foot. Would you offer yourself as sacrifice knowing the pain, torment, and shame you would endure so that you could save others? Even if you were 99% sure that you would be raised after?

    Last, I offer this thought. While our Lord is a part of the Holy Trinity, there are still things in God Almighty's mind that no one knows, including the day of judgement that not even Jesus knows. He knows it is coming, but not when. How much of that was true for his Crucificion?

    So no I don't think it is overrated. Perhaps some people use it more than they should when preaching the gospel.

    But for me, when I was in spiritual agony, begging to be accepted, to be washed clean, made worthy in Gods sight. That was the most precious gift in the world. And the second was the peace which surpasses all understanding, peace like a river that came with that commitment. And I have seen proof of that peace working in my life. Making me a better man, slower to anger, quicker to forgive, able to turn the other cheek. Able to see memory's of past pain and see why it happened the way it happened. See the pain, anger, and frustration the other person was larboring under.

    And knowing that misery loves company, passing that pain to others to make themselves feel better.

    Not understanding that TALKING about pain, sharing it with others reduces it, diminishes it.
    And Joy shared is magnified, enhanced, expanded.

    Once you can see the cycle, understand it, you can begun to short circuit it. Turn pain, anger, fear and frustration into love with soft words and willing ears to hear.

    3 things abide, Faith, Hope, and Love. And the greatest of these is love. Once we learn to share that love, turn away pain. Life gets easier.

    Tonight a miracle happened in hour house. Myself, my wife cindy and my daughter Katie (technically step daughter) sat and talked for 2 hours about how we could best help her get her life in better order. No one got angry or upset, no raised voices, no hurt feelings. If you told me it would happen 5 or 10 years ago, heck even a year ago I'd of called you a liar. But it happened. Hallelujah. Hosanna's to the Lord.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master redhawk0's Avatar
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    The sacrifice was because Jesus was a sinless man/God....He hung on that cross and bore the sins of all mankind and at that point God the Father for the very first time turned his back on Jesus..."My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" The first time since infinity past and the Father and Son broke fellowship.

    This is also the true punishment for a non-believer...not that he/she will spend eternity in eternal fire...but that he/she will be apart from God for eternity future.

    redhawk

    The only stupid question...is the unasked one.
    Be Alert....we need more lerts.
    Not all who wander....are lost.

    If more government is the answer, then it was a really stupid question. - Ronald Reagan

  10. #10
    Boolit Mold mpescatori's Avatar
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    A most interesting thread, a most interesting subject for discussion.

    On the one hand, we only have the four Gospels as assumed "eyewitness testimony"; personally, I do not give too much credit to St.Paul, but that's just me.
    On the other hand, we should read Josephus Flavius,a Hebrew scribe, historian and eyewitness to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman troops in 70AD
    We should also speak to learned rabbis on the "Hebrew style of administering the law" - it turns out much of what's in the Gospels re: Jesus' trial may be made up,
    or narrated in such a fashion as to lead us to believe one chain of events, when it actually happened in quite another fashion.
    Not just Jesus' Passion, but his childhood as well.

    The most difficult question is "When did Jesus become Son of God?"
    Some will reply "on his day of Birth"
    Others will counter "on the day John baptized him"
    And there are other possibilities as well.

    What was the cross like ? Some say it was a trellis-like contraption, to which individual beams were hoisted; others will say they were individual crosses.
    Yet the Greek originals mention the word "stavrňs" for "cross", which means "upright pole" - so any interpretation is applicable.
    Incidentally, it was the Roman Republic which used the cross as death sentence, not the Empire;
    So when Costantine had his dream "in this Sign shall you Win" (in hoc Signo vinces) nobody knew what the cross looked like.
    Most Archaeologists and Historians agree Costantine's soldiers did not paint a cross on their shield, but a "Xi-Rho" asin the coin below

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	343-14-83.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	43.3 KB 
ID:	250366 KI RHO

    Under this perspective, is Jesus' sacrifice overrated ? Not at all.

    Was He the only one to die a Cacrificial Death ? That is another matter.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I have no doubt that Jesus was crucified and that He "died" for our sins. The part of Him that was man, would die at some point or His mission would not have been realized. And I presume His death was not destined to be a peaceful one, or it would not have had the impact needed to make us grateful.

    He was fearful and His pain was real. The part of Him that was man would have felt the pain.

    The question is just how much of a "sacrifice" was it?

    Most atheists, with no expectation of resurrection or eternal life, would die just as gruesome a death to save one child. They would look at their death as the end but accept the ultimate sacrifice.

    Jesus, was part God. His existence would not end on the cross. He would not "die". He would make His sacrifice to save the billions of His children yet to come. Any loving father would do the same for a lot less.

    Or maybe I am looking at this incorrectly?
    "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:6-8

    The process of Jesus' sacrifice was not a 100% unique one. Many innocent people have been tortured and murdered in hideously painful ways. Jesus' motivation was not 100% unique either. Many people have sacrificed their lives to benefit others.

    But the point is, how much can someone give for another other than laying down their life? Jesus did this for people who are not righteous or good*. Paul touched on these ideas in his letter to the Roman church.

    *good in the Bible generally refers to someone who exercises kindness to others.

    What many people miss is the New Testament's emphasis on the work of God the Father through the sacrifice of Jesus. If you read Paul's letters, he emphasizes God's gift, God's work, God's plan and God's sacrifice. The 100% unique thing about Jesus' sacrifice is that his Father ordained it to work out the salvation of humanity and had to sit back and watch the carnage without stepping in to stop it.

  12. #12
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    “The most difficult question is "When did Jesus become Son of God?"
    Some will reply "on his day of Birth"
    Others will counter "on the day John baptized him"
    And there are other possibilities as well.”


    If you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and if you believe it from cover to cover as intended, then this is not at all “difficult.” Jesus has always been and always will be because you see Jesus is God and vice versa. The Holy Trinity makes this very clear.

    As far as the crucifixion being overrated, my opinion is absolutely not. As a matter of fact I feel as though it’s very underrated and unappreciated by many. Without this unselfish act by our Lord and Savior we would all be destined for an eternity in Hell. Jesus’s sacrifice guaranteed that those who accept and believe in Him would not perish but spend eternity with Him in Heaven. To that I rejoice and say Praise the Lord forever! Amen.
    Last edited by DeputyDog25; 10-28-2019 at 04:33 PM.
    Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  13. #13
    Boolit Master


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    GhostHawk,

    Since accepting Jesus, I have changed as well. My fiancé has commented on it.

    I view death differently. I do not look forward to it, but neither do I fear it. Dying with pain is still troublesome, and I have thought about suicide if it ever got bad enough. I have a DNR in my instructions...let God take me when He deems it.

    To answer your question, I would not die like Jesus did to save strangers...but I would to save those I love. Jesus suffered because he loved us...we can agree on that. I hope that I would risk my life to save others...but that is different than being executed.

    God had no choice but to sacrifice Jesus. After centuries of trying, He knew very few men could ever attain salvation. Adam and Eve were unable to follow one rule, man could not follow the 10 Commandments, and the failure of the 600+ Laws was the last attempt to prove to man we could never meet His standards.

    Without Jesus as man’s way to heaven, very few men would make it. Jesus had to die so we could live.

    God chose how Jesus would end His time on Earth. There was a reason and a purpose.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  14. #14
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    GhostHawk,
    He knew very few men could ever attain salvation.

    Without Jesus as man’s way to heaven, very few men would make it.
    Without Jesus no one would make it to heaven. Paul was very clear on that. No one was able to please God except for Jesus.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Dverna I agree with you about death. When he wants me I'm ready to go, wherever, however, he is the master.

    I do have some fears about ending my days in a nursing home, old, frail, half or more blind, no control, no privacy, no dignity.

    My dad was 93, almost totally blind, frail, and dementia started creeping in. First he starting having problems with any person of color taking care of him. Eventually he started attacking and hurting his care givers. He had to be transfered to a different facility 150 miles away where they had people trained to deal with patients like that. I do NOT want to go that way, and I know suicide is a sin. Is stopping eating and drinking a sin?

    Or launching myself in a kayak in a situation where I know I will go over a dam?

    Not that I see myself doing anything like that in the near future.
    But one wonders sometimes.

    I was sure for years that the end of the world as we know it was going to come, and I could go out defending my family. Die with honor and purpose. Now I'm not so sure. I think I need to sit down and have a long talk with the Lord about it.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    You say that you would be willing to die for your children or friend. But what good or what would that change. Your death would not provide anything to your child or friend. If they were in trouble they would still be in trouble after you sacrificed yourself.
    Christ's resurection proves that God is able to resurect the dead. Christ was called the first fruits of the resurection.
    Christ also experienced being forsaken by God duting his death.
    The Jews shead millions of gallons of animals blood for sacrifices. Christ shead blood was less than 2 gallons. The animals blood has no forgiveness of sin, Christ's blood is the only forgiveness of sin. The Bible says "Without the sheading of blood there is not remission", So Christ's death can not be overlooked or minimized or considered unnecessary.

  17. #17
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    wv109323 I think you’re missing the point here. You say that dying for a friend or a child would serve no purpose. I beg to differ with you. In Iraq and Afghanistan many a life was saved by the unselfish sacrifice of a soldier jumping on a IED or taking fire in front of his brother. In the non-military spectrum what about the father who sacrifices his own life by taking on and overtaking or killing a home invader or thug on the street before he dies himself. I don’t know you or your life experience but if you were in the military or law enforcement you would understand the concept of the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one (yes, I realize this a Spock saying but this was said long before Spock came along). We take a sacred oath to die for our brothers and sisters or our country as need be.

    You know why chokes me up and touches my heart and soul the most...the fact that if I were the only person on earth that needed saving through the shed blood of Christ, he would have still subjected himself to the crucifixion. Praise God!
    Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    This is a religious trolling question. If you do not believe that Christ actually died, then you are saying that the scriptures lie. They plainly state that he died in several verses. Paul said that if he didn't die and wasn't resurrected then there is no hope for us and we believe in vain. God the Father and Jesus Christ, the Son, are two different beings. Christ's resurrection was accomplished by God the Father. He (Christ) had (chose) to suffer death to once and for all atone for our sins. Just as the sacrificial lambs had to actually die under the Law, Christ had to actually die to make the sacrifice valid.

    How can you ask if the death of Christ is overrated? The Bible says that no man hath greater love than he who lays down his life for his friend. Your salvation and resurrection are/will be the result of his sacrifice. To ask or believe that it is overrated is to cheapen the gift. If you think that it's overrated, then maybe you don't need the gift and actually reject it.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    This is a religious trolling question.
    I have followed his posts here and have concluded dverna does not troll. He asks honest questions that are on his mind. They warrant thought out responses.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Perhaps a position of perspective, Ickisrulz. In this instance I make that observation because the question seems to be formulated to elicit a response by "getting a rise" out of a person. The question for a true believer is not if Christ's sacrifice is overrated, but if it is underrated. To most true Christians the sacrifice made by Christ is the real basis of the Gospel, and the real basis of the religion itself, which teaches that the only way to salvation is through Christ, and that is because Christ made the sacrifice. The question is preposterous when viewed from the viewpoint of a Christian, and is therefore a trolling question. If one believes himself to be saved through the sacrifice of Christ, and if Christ is the only "way", then he can not overrate the sacrifice, and it is a ridiculous question deserving of a sharp answer.

    There are, as you know, many versions and branches of Christianity, some so far out as to be considered cults. The first
    instance that comes to mind is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, AKA The Mormons. They believe that
    during the three days and three nights during which most versions of Christianity teach Christ was dead in the tomb, Christ actually went to Hades and ministered to the lost souls consigned therein. This is not reconcilable with the Holy Bible's
    version of what occurred. Dead is dead.

    Again, I say it is a religiously trolling question to state that Christ's death was not a death, and if it is overrated. No one who was hopelessly lost and now can receive eternal life with God can consider Christ's death and sacrifice to be overrated.
    If they do, they have not fully grasped the gift.

    I do consider this to be a "thought out response."
    Last edited by Der Gebirgsjager; 10-29-2019 at 03:49 PM.

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