I just checked the Lucky Gunner site. They have some new results posted for Winchester Ranger T series 45ACP 230 grain JHP ammo that is really impressive.
!4" penetration with expansion of 1"(yes that is one inch).
Nobody has any in stock that I could find quickly. Some restrict the sale to law enforcement only which I find ridiculous(I have the same right to survive a shootout with a bad guy as LEOs do).
Animals and people are not any tougher or harder to kill today than they were in black powder days.
Most of the drive towards developing hollow-point handgun bullets for LE use was to reduce risk of collateral damage by reducing risk of riccochets and to prevent bullets from exiting the body, which would increase risk of injuring other officers or innocent bystanders.
HP bullets also improved the effectiveness of low-powered cartridges having marginal energy, notably the standard pressure .38 Special LRN service load. The .38 was effective enough if shots were well placed on vital areas of the torso, where the bullet was able to do its 180-degree "flip" continuing base-forward, but with poor shot placement .38 Special 158-grain LRN and 9mm FMJRN loads were "wounders."
Keith's and Hatcher's writings of the 1930s correctly described the attributes of flat-nosed bullets which gave deep penetration with good "crush" characteristics. The .38 Colt Special and .38 Colt New Police were markedly more effective than LRN loads of similar energy. Keith's high velocity flatnosed bullets with full diameter front driving band and sharp shoulder were well proven on game by the mid-1930s.
Black powder era cartridges such as the .44-40, firing a soft lead, flatnosed bullet at about 900 fps from a typical revolver, killed out of proportion to their kinetic energy and still do.
If one would simply follow Keith's advice to use a caliber with starts with a "4", firing a soft lead, half ounce, 6-10 BHN bullet, having a meplat larger than half of the bullet diameter, at about 900 fps, you have the exact performance needed for a defensive handgun or outdoorsman's "packing pistol."
Attachment 250003Attachment 250004
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By today’s “ standards”a half ounce bullet at 900 fps “recoils too much.”
Thus the stampede to 9mm. Current thinking is all handgun calibers of 9mm power level or higher but in the same energy region have effectively the same wounding potential given suitable bullets.
Whether true or not is arguable. We seem these days to find previously manageable cartridges unmanageable to justify new thinking. In 25 years some other line of reasoning will be popular. We like change periodically.
In my opinion, RNFMJ is inferior to almost any alternative bullet of better tissue affecting shape and adequate penetration. That appears to be less arguable given what is known.
I am in substantial agreement with the previous commentary above.
id agree RNFMJ basically the worst possible choice. with amazing collections of data like the lucky gunner linked earlier why not just pick which one does what you like, be it more expansion or more pen.
I also find it interesting that the .38spl LHPSWC bullets had almost perfect penetration and little to no expansion. I would suspect a plain 158gn SWC bullet would do as well. I wonder if the Army would have contracted for the .45 if they had just used a SWC design instead of a round nose. It seemed to satisfy the FBI for many years.
The very slightest puckering of a hollowpoint such that the bullet resembles an oatmeal container noticeably attenuates penetration. The classic “mushroom” expansion is probably not a characteristic the 38 LSWCHP +P 158 exhibits in actual human involved shootings from snubby length barrels.
Still was and is considered effective. A harder cast non hollow point bullet of similar shape but lacking any degree of deformation, however slight, will penetrate quite substantially more than the softer swaged LSWCHP will. I consider the performance in the LG tests to be quite acceptable and am unconcerned what the bullet does in expansion as long as the penetration criteria is well met.
Last edited by 35remington; 10-21-2019 at 06:58 PM.
Holes kill stuff. I do t find a hollow point necessary. If it’s what I have at the time the. I use them, but the majority of the time I have solids in my pistols.
holes kill stuff, but bigger nasty jagged holes kill things quicker. particularily if discussing self defense, short of a central nervous system hit, the average 2 legged critter shot thru the heart can still kill you while they bleed out. my opinion is to make the time that takes to happen as little as possible. adrenaline is an incredible thing and can keep a dead man in the fight for a short time before they realize they are dead.
As for me, I likes my .45's (and .38's) to expand.
Don
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
NRA Life Member
It been a while since I have read Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall but if I remember correctly 9mm ball was about 30% for one shot stops. 45 ACP ball was about 50%. With good hollow points both are over 90% so yes expansion increases stopping power.
Some light wound ballistics here. https://history.amedd.army.mil/books...cs/default.htm
In 1974 as 14 year old I purchased a new Colt Gold Cup. I shot a lot of jack rabbits with it. I started with ball but some solid hits failed to anchor them. I switched to 200 hollow points and it was like the hammer of Thor hit them. I also shot them with a 45 Colt but that had a medium sized meplat cast and that also worked very well.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 10-22-2019 at 02:33 AM.
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LGs test shows that the best penetrations with the JHPs were mostly NOT expanded. And those JHPs that did expand were in the shallow end of FBI acceptable penetration.Originally Posted by 35remington
Looks like Speer and Hornady and Golden Sabers look good. And seems +p is a good choice in these offerings.
Lefty
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....
The “shallow end” for a few types was around a couple of inches past the FBI standard, as in beyond what is considered needed, and it is no great trick to find an expanding JHP that goes further than that. All calibers had a few under penetrating examples mostly frangible ammo or lightweight for caliber bullets that expanded too widely. We can safely ignore those in all instances.
Handily substantiates my statement that the 45 does not “need” nonexpanding bullets to be usable for defensive use and is competitive in penetration to other calibers when using hollowpoint bullets. This is well known in the wound ballistic community.
The best penetration with all calibers was with nonexpanding bullets, so no news there. Since you ended your post noting several different brands of JHP that did well in the test (I counted about near 20 candidates from this test alone which is not all encompassing) it appears you are in substantial agreement with my comment that the 45 ACP does not need ball ammo to attain adequate penetration. Enough said on that point.
Last edited by 35remington; 10-22-2019 at 09:11 PM.
I carry what I practice with, and for me it's cast coww. I hope that I'll never have to shoot or draw down on another person, but if I have to shoot I want to know that the gun will go bang and the boolits will go where I'm pointing them.
Confidence in your equipment is paramount.
Tom
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Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?
The Hornady Critical Duty rounds fully expanded and penetrated to the far end of the scale. It is exactly what they were designed to do so it is not surprising (they were designed to meet the full FBI criteria, including the glass and metal portions). The Critical Defense rounds also fully expanded and are designed to penetrate to the near end of the scale after going through clothing, which is exactly what they do.
And you are right, many of the others did not fully expand on every shot.
I don’t think I stated that. It we can agree to disagree. I look at the chart and see something different than you. I’m still under the expression that the 45ACP penetrates better with SWC or RN, especially in biological targets with different density of organic tissue and bone. And the addition of barrel length helps all bullet shapes. IMHO.
But you are right, enough said between you and me on this subject.
Lefty
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....
Yes, all calibers penetrate better in targets, biological and otherwise, with RN and SWC when compared to hollowpoints.
In my opinion, the best bullets in the world will not do you any good unless you can hit the target. I remember reading how quite a few police officers have fired huge numbers of rounds at a suspect and not even hit them even. So at least hitting the target ought to be a high priority. Now then with that said a FMJ or plain lead bullet is still very effective. Most firearms are very reliable with FMJ bullets too. But a good hollow point bullet that expands reliably does offer a better chance of the bullet nicking or cutting an artery or damaging a vital organ if it passes by close. A FMJ might not quite damage something vital.
45 GI ball for me. Positive feed, plenty of killing power. You can only kill something dead. I just keep fresh top of the line Win or Rem ball and don't worry about it.
The disturbing thing about the cited study is it posits that gun regulation limiting the power or caliber of the handgun should be considered based on the results found.
So, we not only would face a push to limit how many rounds a pistol could carry, but an attempt to limit its lethality on a per shot basis as well. Just what we need...a legislative attempt to make us carry Jennings pistols chambered in 22 short.
If my life is worth defending, legislative attempts to weaken the firearm I can use and make it less effective in protecting me and mine because some gang banger shoots another lowlife with a pistol termed “too lethal” is the height of left leaning folly.
After the last assault weapons ban larger caliber pistols enjoyed something of a resurgence. They want to go after that someday too. It is not just one thing they are after.
Threats to liberty go sadly unrecognized by those interested in “public good” over personal safety.
A 147 grain 9mm that fails to expand "should" penetrate about 28" of gelatin. If, instead, it manages to satisfy the FBI's 12"-18" penetration criteria, I'd bet that it "tumbled" -- flipped 180 degrees and continued on base forward. My guess is that there isn't much practical difference between tumbling into the FBI's 12"-18" criteria or expanding into it.
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| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
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| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
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| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
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