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Thread: 4F Blackpowder?

  1. #1
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    4F Blackpowder?

    Can it be used for cartridge loading- specifically 44 WCF? I have a pound with nary a flintlock in sight. Thanks!

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  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Can it be used for cartridge loading- specifically 44 WCF?
    Not in my reloading room! Every grade of BP has a specific purpose and FFFFg is pan powder for flint locks.
    If you were to use it, there is no loading data for the powder in 44-40's. So you would have to be a 'knowledge' reloader and work up a charge using a chronograph - which I presume you don't own one
    Regards
    John

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    Can it be used for cartridge loading- specifically 44 WCF? I have a pound with nary a flintlock in sight. Thanks!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    Have used (homemade - but got plenty of grunt) FFFFg in 357 magnum and 32/20 without any signs of problem - model 92 actions - I think my "just in case meter" would read no to 44/40 - mainly because my favourite 44/40 is a brass frame 66.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    A friend gave me a pound of black powder that was labeled FFF but on inspection was FFFF. I asked the question on this forum about what it could be used for, and got the usual answer about flintlock priming. Later I saw in an article about black that FFFF could be used for firearms below 36 cal, as I recall. Since I had a 7.62 Nagant revolver, I loaded up a few, and it worked fine. Having said that, I would probably limit my use of FFFF to small caliber cartridge loads.

    Wayne
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  5. #5
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    The only use of FFFFG powder that I can find is in the LYMAN Blackpowder Handbook
    from 1975. The loads listed are in the blackpowder revolver chapter.
    31 cal with RB, 10.0 grs, 694 fps. 13 grs, 795 fps. 5 3/4 " BBL
    36 cal with RB, 14 grs to 26 grs, 27.5 maximum charge. 7 1/2 " BBL
    36 cal with bullet #37583 9 grs to 15 grs. 15 grs maximum charge. 7 1/2 " BBL
    44 cal with RB, 19.0 to 33.0 grs, 37 maximum charge, 8" BBl
    44 cal with bullet #450229, 19.0 grs to 25.0 grs, 28 grs maximum load.
    Ruger Old Army, with 7 1/2" BBL, 31.0 to 41.0 grs maximum charge, with RB.
    Ruger Old Army , with 7 1/2 BBL, with bullet #45468, 26.0 grs to 35.0 grs.
    3/4 of maximum charge weight - Reduced volume taken up by corn meal filler.
    I would say that ffffg is OK to use in a modern gun.
    But I would still work up to max loads. And use fillers to take up any space between
    projectile and powder. All these loads were worked up in special pressure revolvers,
    except the Ruger Old Army. These were the loads out of the Lyman book. So use at
    your own risk.
    webfoot10

  6. #6
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    Thank you all. I was hoping that someone had experience with it. So- does the finer granulation increase the burn rate and /or pressure? I’ve been under the impression that granule size is the only difference in black powder grades; I guess not? I have primed flintlocks with 3F and it worked fine but I will listen to the collective knowledge here.
    This was a what if? Type question to begin with.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    Thank you all. I was hoping that someone had experience with it. So- does the finer granulation increase the burn rate and /or pressure?

    I dont have it to to hand to quote but plenty of evidence out there to say yes to this - definitely changing from F to FF to FFF increases burn rate and pressure - should follow for FFFF ?yes?

    I’ve been under the impression that granule size is the only difference in black powder grades; I guess not?
    The composition is unchanged but as grain size decreases we have exponentially more surface area exposed to initial ignition (halve the grain size = four times the surface area)

    I have primed flintlocks with 3F and it worked fine but I will listen to the collective knowledge here.
    yes that will wok but FFFF will work that bit quicker - a good flintlock would proly still work with Fg in the pan but your follow through on the shot would need to be real good!
    This was a what if? Type question to begin with.
    .........

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    Elmer Keith used to grind 4F in a mortar and pestle to talcum powder fineness and load 45 Colt cartridges with it to get higher velocities! He stopped the practice after having a SAA blow up in his hand. He then switched to the 44 spl. cartridge and the rest is history!

  9. #9
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    The problem EK experienced was the much used cartridge case failed. This allowed the gases to blow off the loading gate and slice his finger. Case failure, not revolver failure.

    He also blew up a number of 44s and other revolvers in his experiments.

    He did pursue higher pressures with the 44 Special.

    Kevin
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    Thank you all. I was hoping that someone had experience with it. So- does the finer granulation increase the burn rate and /or pressure? I’ve been under the impression that granule size is the only difference in black powder grades; I guess not? I have primed flintlocks with 3F and it worked fine but I will listen to the collective knowledge here.
    This was a what if? Type question to begin with.
    YES. Finer grained powder has more surface area per volume in a given grain. This allows faster burn, and a quicker rise to the pressure curve. It is extremely unlikely that you would damage a modern firearm with good quality brass in a pistol cartridge filled to the base of the bullet with 4F powder. But you may not gain anything in accuracy, and surprisingly little in velocity. Possibly also increased fouling. By all means burn up what you've got, but replace with proper granulation in the future.
    John Wells in PA

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawHat View Post
    The problem EK experienced was the much used cartridge case failed. This allowed the gases to blow off the loading gate and slice his finger. Case failure, not revolver failure.

    He also blew up a number of 44s and other revolvers in his experiments.

    He did pursue higher pressures with the 44 Special.

    Kevin
    Do you have a source for this? I seem to remember in sixguns, him telling about two original colt 45's he managed to blow up. One must have been the fine black powder, and the other I want to say was #80 dupont or something odd. I do not think Elmer Keith ever blew up a 44 special.

    I too am interested in loading 4Fg into a small cartridge. I don't know about 44-40, but I think it might be interesting in 327 federal, 32-20 (modern guns), and 357 magnum.

  12. #12
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    I’m not trying for a hot load; just A use what you got type load. Start at low .44 cap&ball loads with filler and see what happens. I’ll segregate some odd cases and cast some soft 200 rnfp. When I break the sound barrier from my 20”Topper I’ll call it good.
    Johnboy- I’ve been gathering “knowledge” about reloading since 1972 when I started this hobby. I’ve developed many loads with and without a chronograph. I sold the last one I had because I got tired of setting it up and taking it down just to compile data. I’m a simple guy; the only results I look at is game killed or groups on paper. I have a true 1/4MOA .308 in the safe that I load with every component weighed and runout sorted and it bores me. A chronograph won’t tell you anything about pressure except “whoa- that load is fast!” The stiff opening bolt is a clue, though.

  13. #13
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    I would use it in it and as for the 4f is better in a priming pan did our forefathers use it and reading books on the subject more evidence that no they used the same powder as in the barrel and grades of powder are somewhat different today then older days , but to each their own .

    I use 3f in everything , have used the other grades and not as much difference noticed as people would have you believe . This like many questions will get as many naysayers as use it and load accordingly and as for more fouling I remember when people said use finer grades for less fouling , and fouling seemed to me to be a lube issue at times to .

    You know what to do from the tone of your replies to advice so go have fun and let us know.

  14. #14
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    I shoot a 4 FFFF black powder 15-20 grains load in both my original and reproduction 31 CAL. revolvers with not a problem. it is a listed load in GEORGE C NONTE'S book 2sd, edition 1968 on black powder guns.

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    I would not as the risk of turning a beautiful 44wcf into scrap metal is not that appealing along my body is not into getting hid with flying debris so I’d just use it to touch off my cannon Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    Can it be used for cartridge loading- specifically 44 WCF? I have a pound with nary a flintlock in sight.
    For .44wcf? You could probably get away with it in a modern Ruger [ie: strong] revolver, but nothing vintage. If you were loading for something that corresponds to the correct use [.22, .28, .31 C&B equivalents in cartridge form] then woohoo! Load away! If you don't have anything that small, then it might be time to buy one of the C&B versions of the NAA Mini revolver. Can't think of a better justification...

    Other than that, you could use it as a booster charge [a dash right over the primer] if all you had for your 44WCF was slow 2F musket powder.

    See if someone on the 22 BP reloading thread here on Cast Boolits is local to you & looking for some appropriate powder for their experiments?

  17. #17
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    Do you have a source for this? I seem to remember in sixguns, him telling about two original colt 45's he managed to blow up. One must have been the fine black powder, and the other I want to say was #80 dupont or something odd. I do not think Elmer Keith ever blew up a 44 special.

    I too am interested in loading 4Fg into a small cartridge. I don't know about 44-40, but I think it might be interesting in 327 federal, 32-20 (modern guns), and 357 magnum.
    Uh, the *length* of the powder column is a critical feature in BP loads, since the adiabatic heating & pressure rise can outpace the flame front & lead to detonation [my understanding of the physics may be wrong here, so don't take that as gospel.] Using the 4f in the long cases of the latter cartridges you mention may therefore be contraindicated. Don't know the relevant limits [each granulation has its own upper limit on column length, hence the use of slower powders for bigger loads.] The critical information is probably out there in some vintage reloading manual, but got lost in the intervening decades as "Everyone knows not to do this" fought with "we can eek some more profits out of the next printing by cutting out X pages by elimination of unneeded text/using smaller type/etc..."

  18. #18
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    If all goes well I'll be testing some GOEX ffffg in 45 Colt under the Lyman 454190 tomorrow. Also a couple loads under a 230 gr bullet. Not the 44 WCF but assuming the 45 Colt actual measured pressure results will shed some light on the topic.
    Larry Gibson

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  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy View Post
    Not in my reloading room! Every grade of BP has a specific purpose and FFFFg is pan powder for flint locks. If you were to use it, there is no loading data for the powder in 44-40's. So you would have to be a 'knowledge' reloader and work up a charge using a chronograph - which I presume you don't own one
    I have used a "pinch" of 4Fg as a booster to improve ignition and clean burning of IMR4198 and RL7 for revolver use in the .44-40. Rifle velocity with a 4-5 grain booster and then filing the case to 1/8" compression with the slow smokeless is little different than straight RL7 or 4198 when shot in the El Tigre or Marlin 1894, but the BP booster next to the primer greatly reduced the amount of unburned smokeless powder left in revolver chambers, compared to firing loads without it. Normal smokeless cleaning methods work fine.

    I DO NOT use the duplex loads in my 1905 Colt SA or 1920 Colt New Service, but only in my 1986 S&W Model 544 Texas Wagon Train and John Taylor custom Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag/.44-40 convertible, and in my two rifles.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    If all goes well I'll be testing some GOEX ffffg in 45 Colt under the Lyman 454190 tomorrow. Also a couple loads under a 230 gr bullet. Not the 44 WCF but assuming the 45 Colt actual measured pressure results will shed some light on the topic.
    Thanks, Larry. I'll be interested in your results. I tried 20 grs. with maltomeal filler compressed under a 200 gr flat point and it was a total non- event as I expected- akin to a light cap and ball revolver load.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check