Is this .32 ACP load too hot to be safe?

[Rapidrob]

I have a large amount of .32 ACP loads using a 71 grain cast lead bullet over 2.4 grains of 231. This load was made for the older,heaver,frame/ slide European pistols. Is this load too hot for any .32ACP pistol?

[gwpercle]

My RCBS Manual #1 shows a : 77 gr. RN , 231 powder , sized .312 .
starting load - 2.0 grs. @ 708 fps
maximum load - 2.5 grs @ 881 fps

Test gun : Colt Pocket Model , 3 3/4" bbl.

2.4 grs. of 231 with the 71 gr. boolit should be right at maximum .
But is it " too hot for ANY 32 acp pistol " ... any covers a lot of questionable firearms...
How about we get more specific....I would shoot them in my recent mfg Walther PPK or Walther PPKS .
The load is no powder puff and should only be fired in guns in good condition made by a known maker.
Gary

[Outpost75]

Load is OK for any "full sized" .32 ACP, would not put lots of it through a Keltec.

[Walks]

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot that load in My Walther PP or Beretta 70.
But a Lorcin......never. If I was stupid enough to own one.

[Rapidrob]

The reason I ask is two fold:
1. It did show up as being a safe load. Recoil was normal and the cases show no signs of bulging or pressure signs at the primer.
Accuracy was outstanding at 25 yards.
2. I was shooting a CZ-27 Nazi made pistol. After about 50 rounds the pistol jammed. I had a very hard time clearing the pistol. The last shot had hit in the group I was shooting and could be easily seen. The shot was NORMAL in sound and recoil. The barrel was clear,there had NOT been a squib load. The fired case did not eject.
I had to force the slide back with a rubber mallet. The case came out and was NOT damaged in any manned other than a slight bulge at the crack area.
The barrel has a horizontal split from the extractor groove up to the front of the chamber!
The chamber had swelled a little and jammed the slide to the frame. No damage was done to the pistol.
I've been shooting hand guns since 1963. I have never seen this happen before.
I have seen massive overloads blow pistols apart. I have seen a round fired behind a stuck bullet in the barrel and bulge the barrel badly.
This one has to be poor steel in the barrel. You can see a flaw in the crack. It's a first for me. And an expensive failure to replace. Try to find a barrel for a CZ-27........

[Outpost75]

Longitudinal cracks are not unusual for wartime barrels made with slave labor.

Rushed production and poor QC.

If you REALLY like the gun, John Taylor can make a barrel, and while at it make it long enough to thread for a can.

I had him make a Beretta an extra length barrel for me.

[Valornor]

Longitudinal cracks are not unusual for wartime barrels made with slave labor.

Rushed production and poor QC.

If you REALLY like the gun, John Taylor can make a barrel, and while at it make it long enough to thread for a can.

I had him make a Beretta an extra length barrel for me.

I would second that. Unless you have had that pistol since it’s conception you don’t know what kind of abuse it might have taken before you got your hands on it.

FYI,

CIP Pmax is 23kpsi
SAAMI MAP is 20.5kpsi


So in theory if the war time pistol was made and proofed using the CIP spec, it should be able to take hotter loads coming out of Europe, loads loaded to SAAMI spec ought to be well within the Pistols capability.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[Outpost75]

Very common in wartime barrels to see nonmetallic inclusions or laminations. These usually occur from elongation of a shrinkage pit in the center of the steel billet when it was poured, because the billet was improperly cropped in the mill, and the pit was missed because the cut was inspected only visually, rather than checking with dye penetrant.

When the billet is rolled into bars, the pit is elongated down the center of the bar. In wartime they depended upon the gun drill removing any such imperfection, and any which are missed would generally fail in proof, which is why you proof barrels.

But sometimes a bit of the imperfection remains, but missed visual inspection of the bore, being "good enough for government work" and the barrel passes proofing and soldiers on until intergranular corrosion propagates from the potassium chloride left from long ago use of corrosive primers, working on the pit, until it forms a stress riser and you get a failure as shown in the example.

You might fire an old military barrel for years and then it will fail out of the blue with a normal load.

[mattw]

My CZ70 would love it... would not shoot them in my little Keltec. The brass would bulge, in real life I expect it to be the impulse swelling the thin chamber walls. I try not to shoot anything in it that makes the brass bulge.

[Rapidrob]

I friend of mine travels the USA to Police Stations and buys pistols that are to be destroyed. He is allowed to buy all the parts other than the frames. He says he has a very nice CZ27 barrel with a like new bore ( Nazi) for 50 bucks plus shipping.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I friend of mine travels the USA to Police Stations and buys pistols that are to be destroyed. He is allowed to buy all the parts other than the frames. He says he has a very nice CZ27 barrel with a like new bore ( Nazi) for 50 bucks plus shipping.

there ya go Problem solved.

Most all European .32 ACP ammo was loaded hot. For along time European .32 ACP was considered more powerful than .380 ACP.

Your barrel probably had some bad steel. Czechs made good guns but during wartime they were Slave Labor and probably didn't deliberately do their best every day. Plus that lots of things could have happened to that barrel since 1942.

Randy

[lead-1]

Question, why wouldn't some of you shoot that load thru a Kel-Tec?
The Kel-Tec is a modern gun and that load is a modern published load for such guns, does the manual say don't use in a Kel-Tec, Ruger, S&W or ect.?

[Valornor]

If the gun is designed for SAAMI rounds, use rounds loaded to SAAMI Spec.

CIP rounds, which maybe hotter, shouldn’t be shot in a SAAMI spec gun. Most if not all European loads follow CIP rather then SAAMI specs.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[lead-1]

Valornor. If the load was published in a RCBS manual wouldn't it be a SAAMI spec load?
I do understand that European ammo and also +P are hotter than SAAMI spec and have seen first hand a Ruger that was junked from +P ammo.

[Valornor]

I must have misread the question. I thought you were asking about shooting European loads through a Kel-Tec not handloads.

I would be surprised if RCBS was publishing CIP data in their handbook. Should all be SAAMI.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[Outpost75]

Question, why wouldn't some of you shoot that load thru a Kel-Tec?
The Kel-Tec is a modern gun and that load is a modern published load for such guns, does the manual say don't use in a Kel-Tec, Ruger, S&W or ect.?

A Keltec P32 will disassemble itself firing loads I use routinely in my 1944 Beretta M1935 and Colt M1903 Type III made in 1920.

[lead-1]

Thank you Valornor.
Outpost75, are you using published SAAMI spec loads or are you putting some heat in them, that's what I am asking?
I do not think modern published loads are going to destroy modern "reputable" handguns. Also with that being said I have also seen a Lorcin barrel split by Blazer Aluminum ammo.

[lead-1]

Please understand I am not trying to be argumentative but fact finding. My son has a Kel-Tec P32 that he uses as a pocket carry and he has been asking me to load him some ammo to shoot as plinking/range time ammo rather than shoot up a bunch of expensive factory loads.

[Outpost75]

Please understand I am not trying to be argumentative but fact finding. My son has a Kel-Tec P32 that he uses as a pocket carry and he has been asking me to load him some ammo to shoot as plinking/range time ammo rather than shoot up a bunch of expensive factory loads.

Beretta USA service dept. advises to avoid in Tomcat any load producing above 130 ft.-lbs. of energy:
I would apply same rule to Keltecs.,

.32 ACP “WW2 Vintage,” Current Euro-CIP and Buffalo Bore +P Factory Ammunition

Ammunition ________________Beretta Tomcat 2.4”
WW2 Geco Steel Cased FMJ_______907 fps, 14 Sd
WW2 WRA 73-grain FMJ__________923 fps, 28 Sd
RWS 73-grain FMJ_______________896 fps, 29 S
Fiocchi 73-grain FMJ_____________848, fps, 32 S

Average 73-grain “Hardball” Velocity_894 fps
Average 73 grain “Hardball” Energy_128 ft.-lbs.

Buffalo Bore 75-grain LFN________883, fps, 6 Sd
Buffalo Bore 75-grain Energy______128 ft.-lbs.

Loads exceeding 130 ft.-lbs. of energy are NOT recommended for use in Beretta Tomcat or Keltec Pistols

.32 ACP Loads OAL 0.945” “Group 1” Loads, OK as "steady diet" for use in Tomcat and Keltec pistols:

Ammunition ________________Beretta Tomcat 2.4”

Acc. 31-077B LD#00 2.0 TiteGroup__790, 12 Sd
Acc. 31-077B LD#0 2.2 Bullseye____757, 16 Sd
Acc. 31-077B LD#1 2.5 Bullseye____835, 16 Sd
Acc. 31-077B LD#0 3.0 AutoComp__837, 10 Sd
Acc.31-090B LD#00 2.5 AutoComp__729, 11 Sd
Acc. 31-095T LD#00 2.5 AutoComp__741, 25 Sd
Acc. 31-095T LD#6 5.2 #2400_____750, 17 Sd

Cast Bullet Velocity Required to Equal “Average Factory Energy” With Various Bullet Weights

_________________________2.4” Barrel”
Avg. 73-gr. “Hardball” Energy_128 ft.-lbs.
77 grain bullet______________865 fps
87-grain bullet______________815 fps
90-grain bullet______________800 fps
95-grain bullet______________780 fps
100-grain bullet_____________770 fps

Loads intended for Beretta Tomcat and Keltec pistols should be kept below these limits.

[lead-1]

Outpost75, thanks for the input. I just looked up the Fiocchi ammo that he shoots and it is listed as 980 fps and 155 ft-lbs of energy.