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Thread: I知 all done with my 450BM Ruger American with cast!!!

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Angry I知 all done with my 450BM Ruger American with cast!!!

    If you’ve followed some of my threads from the last couple years when I first started here you all know my first gun I tried cast in was my brand new Ruger American 450 bushmaster. I was using lee 300 Grain that had too wide of a metplate so they kept jamming. It didn’t matter how short the AOL was. I never thought cycling was going to be an issue so I never tested it and did some ladder testing with the gun. My best group was 1.1” at 100 yards...and then I loaded some up to cycle and found out it kept jamming. I would have to use it as a single shot if I wanted to shoot the lee 300 FN’s in it.


    Well, now to the present. I waited, and waited, and waited to get our special run group buy NOE 450 bushmaster mold. 452-277-RF. A mold made specifically for the 450 BM so it would cycle flawlessly...not mine.

    Guess what...same exact random jamming issues! I loaded some dummy rounds as advised by one of our other members in various lengths till my cast boolit didn’t kiss the lands. At an OAL of 2.035”. My rounds just barely touched the lands. I made 6 rounds to try at 2.035”. The top part of my HP hit high,above the chamber, and jammed on the last round. It would randomly jam on the second round as well. I then seated them deeper to 1.996” and taper crimped again to .474”. The shorter dummy loads had plenty of clearance and still jammed on the 2nd round. I tried three more all three cycled. I got excited!...Then the next five groups of three in a row jammed! Guess some guns just aren't made for cast. I have tried three different magazines in it as well thinking the magazine springs were weak. I can see on the side of my boolits where they skipped and scraped going into the chamber. I’m guessing the action needs a massive metal removal and polishing to let soft cast boolits glide/slide into the chamber. My cast boolits are getting kicked up too high and getting caught on the top of the chamber. Same issue with the lee 300 FN.

    I did grab some 250 grain hornady flex tip j word ammo I loaded myself. They all feed and cycled as smooth as silk. I ran 20 plus through the gun to see if there was a cycling issue...nope. Just with cast.

    Two strikes and it’s out! I’ve tried two different boolits/molds through it now both with cycling issues. Might be pawning off my .452 stuff as the only other 45 cal I own is a new vaquero and I don’t want to waste $ for gas checks for it.

    After I got frustrated with us gun two years ago I picked up my Ruger 77/44 and had absolutely zero issues with cycling with it. I even loaded the big, wide lee 300’s .430’s in my 77/44 and they function perfect. I know some guys here I’ve been shooting cast out of theirs maybe I just got a lemon because it just nonstop jams with cast no matter what over all length or boolit I use it seems. It just shouldn’t be this hard to get cast to work in this rifle. Time to move onto another caliber and rifle. I’ll have to load up some of my lee .358’s in my 7600 35 Rem and Whelen. I bet I have zero issue with feed and function on these rifles. I’ll keep the bushmaster for now and just exclusively shoot J words in it for when I go to Iowa deer hunting but my molds are probably going away since I don’t own any other 45s that run fast enough your gas checks. It can’t be that hard...it has to be the gun. I believe the cheap plastic magazine and spring along with a really, really ruff chamber is the cause. It’s not a problem the pointed plastic tipped j words though. I believe the only way my gun would function with cast is to make a clone of the shape of the hornady flex tip J word and cast it as hard as rock so it wouldn’t scrape while cycling...and would completely defeat the purpose of using it as a hunting round.

    Can you tell I’m frustrated beyond all belief?

    This gun with cast has definitely fried my brain. I’ll stick with my 77/44.




    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 10-13-2019 at 05:39 PM.

  2. #2
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    cwlongshot's Avatar
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    Yea... as much as I like these RAR’s... They dont feed blunt boolets well.

    Did you try the bullets I sent ya? That 300g Lyman should feed just fine. ( The green ones) It feeds in mine just fine!! I cant get that lee 300 to work in mine the way I want either. I dont have the bullet you show. Mine is the 285 g its got less of a flat point. I thought you had same.


    I fixed one today. My buddy bought a brand new Predator 308...We shot it friday night. And he had feeding issies. Complained and I thought it just a “new gun” or just him...

    This AM he came over and we loaded up the fifty cases I prepped Saturday afternoon. Well I saw the problem straight off. The ejector was proud of the. Olt face and couldnt allow the rin to slide up into the recess and be grabbed bu the extractor...

    Apparently whom ever assembled the bolt didnt set the button that is the ejector properly. Easy fix. Depress the ejector drive the pin into position. FIXED!

    Its not your issue i know.
    NRA Life member REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwlongshot View Post
    Yea... as much as I like these RAR’s... They dont feed blunt boolets well.

    Did you try the bullets I sent ya? That 300g Lyman should feed just fine. ( The green ones) It feeds in mine just fine!! I cant get that lee 300 to work in mine the way I want either. I dont have the bullet you show. Mine is the 285 g its got less of a flat point. I thought you had same.


    I fixed one today. My buddy bought a brand new Predator 308...We shot it friday night. And he had feeding issies. Complained and I thought it just a “new gun” or just him...

    This AM he came over and we loaded up the fifty cases I prepped Saturday afternoon. Well I saw the problem straight off. The ejector was proud of the. Olt face and couldnt allow the rin to slide up into the recess and be grabbed bu the extractor...

    Apparently whom ever assembled the bolt didnt set the button that is the ejector properly. Easy fix. Depress the ejector drive the pin into position. FIXED!

    Its not your issue i know.

    Can you post a pic of how you did the pin press on the ejector button? I didn’t try the green boolits yet. I was hoping to run a GC to push it a little faster. I might try the greens today...but this gun has literally fried my brain with cast. The problem I see is if I can only run them at 1700/1800 FPS because of no GC I see zero advantage as I run similar weights and velocities in my 77/44 with less powder and zero feeding issues. Basically almost the same weight and velocities in my 77/44 so it defeats the purpose of wasting extra powder with the larger case, $, and time on a larger caliber imo.

    I would assume if I ordered the .454” mold and not the .452” I would have received the narrower tipped boolit. Thought they were going to be exactly the same?
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 10-14-2019 at 09:27 AM.

  4. #4
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Its been stated here many times. PC has been tested well past 2k with no Ill effects. (IIRC it was past 3K!)

    Remember its the pressures more than the velocity that give you issues. But I really need to tell ya not to be so hung up on velocity.

    To press the ejector simply utilize a 45 ACP case. Put that up against the front of the bench and your body weight...

    The 450 walks all over the 454 cassull knocking at the 460’s back door. Its head and shoulders more powerful than the 43 Magnum.

    Yes mine is a 454. But I doubt it changed the nose profile.

    I got a new to me mold today and cast a few tonight to see them. Its a Lyman 457122 drops a .460 dia 335g bullet. I dont intend on it for the 450, as it would need couple steps to size down. BUT... its not a big change from the green 300’s I sent. Those are Lyman 457919 sized down. To 454. I have shot them to 1900 with zero fouling.
    Last edited by cwlongshot; 10-14-2019 at 07:34 PM.
    NRA Life member REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I called Ruger this morning and they figured it might be a magazine issue and was going to send me a replacement one. I remembered earlier on I had a magazine that kept falling out while firing so Ruger sent me a replacement one and I had another one laying around that the bottom broke off and I re-glued it. Both those magazines cycled and jammed worse than the current one. I haven’t tried the lymans yet but at the rate I’m going I’ll guarantee my gun won’t cycle them. You can see how narrow of a window I have where my boolit rim hits before the HP opening. The j words that cycle have to be like sowing thread through a needle when going into my action.

    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 10-16-2019 at 02:24 PM.

  6. #6
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    3B: Does the mouth of the chamber have a sharp edge? It looks like it does. If so refer to the sticky on the Leverguns forum about Chamfering the Chamber Mouth to promote feeding.

    The reason why your gun won't feed soft boolits is because the chamber mouth has a sharp edge that digs into the boolits. The exact same thing occurs on Marlin Rifles in pistol calibers. See pics below.

    Simply putting a .05-.06 chamfer on the chamber mouth will solve your problem.

    I really hope this helps you out. After looking at the pics of your boolits, I'm pretty sure it will.

    Randy
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    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    3B: Does the mouth of the chamber have a sharp edge? It looks like it does. If so refer to the sticky on the Leverguns forum about Chamfering the Chamber Mouth to promote feeding.

    The reason why your gun won't feed soft boolits is because the chamber mouth has a sharp edge that digs into the boolits. The exact same thing occurs on Marlin Rifles in pistol calibers. See pics below.

    Simply putting a .05-.06 chamfer on the chamber mouth will solve your problem.

    I really hope this helps you out. After looking at the pics of your boolits, I'm pretty sure it will.

    Randy

    I believe your correct. I sold my Noe 452-277-RF mold today to another member here so if I ever have the chamfering done I’ll try all over again. Yes it has a sharp edge. Is this something I can do myself? I do have some chamfering bits that are about the correct size to chuck up to my cordless drill.

  8. #8
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    3B: Go here and read this. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...lin-1894-rifle

    It explains how to do it. You don't use the drill motor you turn the Chamfering Tool by hand using an extension on the cutter.

    If you can't do it yourself, a gunsmith shouldn't charge more than $10 to do it because it only takes a few minutes to accomplish.

    Just to give some insight here. My Marlin will feed any type of boolit, SWC's and all, as fast as you can run the lever. The reason why is there is no sharp edge to gouge into the boolit and stop it. Prior to breaking that edge the gun would not feed anything but round nose boolits and it shaved the lead on those too.

    In any event if you plan on keeping that gun you should make the mod or pay someone to do it. I think you'd have a very different opinion on the gun afterwards. In fact you'd probably like it alot.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I have a buddy who’s a smith. When he comes down to my property to bow hunting I’ll send it home with him.

  10. #10
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is a dummy made with a lyman 457122 mold seated to last driving band and taper crimped. Powder coated clear.

    Feeds slick n smooth no hangups what so ever.

    Hope your magazine is issue and new one fixes things for ya.

    CW
    NRA Life member REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  11. #11
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    jwords work but cast wont. What bhn are your cast?
    There comes a point in every job where it's time to get out the big hammer

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  12. #12
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I have(had) three different magazines and caused random jamming. I believe if I point my barrel up or down it promotes it. I wrecked one of the magazines today and removed to much of the feeding ramp surface. The ammo now feeds too low with that mag. I tossed it out. Ruger said they were sending another magazine a few days ago so I took a gamble and wrecked one of mine. I really feel it’s a chamfer (lack of)issue. I still don’t believe I’ll be able to remove enough metal to get a proper feed.

    I have tried 16.5 BH , 14.2BH, and 10.5 BH alloys.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
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    I take it that the Ruger American is a 308 length action? Are there any 450 BM bolt guns made on a 223 length action?
    Recent cast boolit hunts:
    Adult buck, 458 SOCOM 405 grain WFN, Doe 36-225AG
    buck & doe, Accurate Molds 36-225AG Model 94AE
    Russian Boar Accurate Molds 46-405A Marlin 45-70

  14. #14
    Boolit Master



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    I had more feeding issues in my 300 BO on a 223 than i have with my 450BM.
    I tbink its the gun/mag combo.

    I just loaded and ran a couple Mags of the 457122 bullet not a single hickup.
    NRA Life member REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    What does the mag spring look like? does it go the whole length or can you put a spacer in the front with a little built in feed ramp? That and the chamber bevel should get it feeding well. The chamber bevel can likely be as large as what they put in ar15's if the bolt face depth is similar to the standard 1/8" or so. Put this block in my ar10 mag to get it to feed 44x1.8" cartridges better. They'd feed mostly out of a standard mag, but would occasionally work forward and cause jams.
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    350 Legend, imitation is the highest form of flattery. Aww, Thanks Winchester!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Well now I’m getting somewhere. I got a second wind and dug my magazine out of the trash last night I dremyled too much out of. I grabbed some JB weld and made a dam with piece of cardboard and some duct tape so I could build up a wall again with JB weld. I ruffed up the inside of the magazine to make sure the JB would not brake loose. This morning I sanded it back down and made a little wider feed slope for my ammo to feed. It fed my dummy hollow point rounds perfect. I only had one not completely cycle that hung up 3/4’s of the way into the chamber out of about 40 plus cycles! I then looked at my factory, unaltered magazine’s feed ramp in comparison. It had plastic burrs hanging all over it along as well as the other factory mag I had. I cleaned the burrs off the first magazine around the feed ramp...it now cycles perfect! The second factory magazine...nope. It’s like the feed ramp is a completely different shape from my other one. I cleaned the burrs off of it as well and now my boolits hit low and jam. All three magazines still cycle with my Hornady FTX J words with zero malfunctions before and after cleaning off the burrs so I’ll have to mark the two mags that cycle cast. I’ll share some photos so others can see if they are having issues with this gun as well. The magazine is definitely the culprit...and I believe some chamfering will also help 110%. It looks like it has just barely a chamfer around it. The one thing I did discover is that my extractor is not extracting my ammo every 1 to 3 rounds. I can’t believe Ruger never caught it since it was sent in that way to them for repair of the loose trigger, scope rail, and bolt carrier release...and I haven’t shot it since I received it back this spring. They missed the ball again. I can move the extractor a good 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch each way and it stays put and doesn’t go back into place.


    Well , two out of three isn’t bad. The only bad thing is I sold my mold a few days ago! Guess I’ll have to look for another one or try to see if the lee 300 grainers cycle again since I removed burrs and modded the other mag with JB weld. The dummy boolits I never PCd...I’m guessing the glossy, clear PC will Aid i. smoother cycling as well?

    My chamber...



    The magazine I had to refill with JB weld that now cycles my HPs...



    Here is one of the factory magazines next to it. Believe it or not I already removed some of the burrs so this one was half cleaned up already. I removed all the burrs with a jackknife on this one and it now feeds the cast HPs just fine...



    This was the inside. I scraped off the little lip so the feed ramp on the unaltered factory magazine is smooth now on the inside as well. I might have widened it a little with scraping as well.




    So here is a pic of the two unaltered factory mags with the burrs removed. The one on the left definitely has been been molded at a different angle...it’s also the one that won’t feed cast. The one on the right now feeds just fine. I tried to “round out” the one in the left to match the one one the right that feeds fine. I didn’t work as now the boolits feed too low with it and cycle too low jamming on the bottom of the receiver.

    I would assume this gun needs a little chamfering.

    You can see the amount of movement here with the extractor I moved from in to out and it stays in place not comming back into the inside of the not keeping pressure to grab cartridges to extract them out of my gun. I have to hold the gun up to drop the rounds out of it. I leave has almost everything replaced on the This rifle from Ruger now...except the extractor, spring, and detent. I’ll have to call them tomorrow and see if they will send me the parts or if I have to send my gun back into them for I believe a 5 th time now.

    Pushed out with my finger and it stays in place...



    Pushed in and it stays..




    Here are the two factory unaltered magazine feeding ramp lips with burrs removed. You can definitely see two different shapes that were molded on the ramps. The one on the right has more of a semi circle look and it feeds my cast HPs just fine now after the burrs were removed. Thd one on the left does not and hits high. After the picture was taken I tried to make more of a U shape for the bullet path and barely sanded a “u” shape in it. It now it feeds to low and jams every time. So two out of three magazines now cycle with cast. The one that dose not still cycles the hornady FTX j words just fine. There must must a real narrow window to get the angle correct to get these mags to feed cast properly.

    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 10-20-2019 at 06:45 PM.

  17. #17
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    Good pics 3B,,, the chamfer on the chamber mouth needs to be about twice as big as what you've got right now. Like out to the white line around the hole. If you were to use a countersink and increase it, then take some 400 grit W/D sandpaper on a piece of dowel and smooth it out until all the sharp corners were blended in you'd have it. You could do the final polish with the dowel/sandpaper in your drill motor.

    Every single gun I have bought in the last 20 years new or used has gone thru a Deburring Process. This consists of handling the gun while watching TV and finding all the little high spots and blending them in so they don't wear on you when in a extensive shooting session. (like a Class where you fire 200+ rounds a day, or a Trap or Skeet Shoot.) also if found when shooting they get dealt with during a break or at lunch. I am not into anything about a gun that irritates me or wears or pokes holes in me as it diminishes the shooting experience.

    I always have a File some Sandpaper, an Emery board, or I will scrape off offending features with my knife.

    Part of what is going on here is the fact that the FTX bullets have a relatively sharp nose on them which finds the hole much easier than the large blunt nose on your Boolits. Effectively you've got to make the hole larger.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  18. #18
    Boolit Master



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    WOOHOO!!

    I was shooting mine today too.

    I shot the GB mold as a 260 HP and 5744 @ 1600 fps to poor accuracy.

    I shot the 330 Gould Express HP to 1500 fps with 5744 to V Good accuracy.

    I shot some 260g Copper HP with AA9 to Very Good accuracy.

    The 260 is a hot load, it feels fine but the chrono says its hot cause its going 2355 fps...

    Shades of your problems... My scope slid forward!! Ill clean and rtv it tomorrow or Tuesday. Re site next weekend.

    Glad you seem to have it figured!

    BTW. I cast all hardnesses. For my rifle bullets generally WW and WW/quenched.

    CW
    NRA Life member REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Check your scope base! The rear base screw kept coming loose on mine causing my scope to slide and apparently it’s a very common issue with the American 450 BM. I acraglass bedded the base, blue loctited all the ring and base screws, and 3M 77’d the inside of the scope rings.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 10-21-2019 at 08:44 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    Good pics 3B,,, the chamfer on the chamber mouth needs to be about twice as big as what you've got right now. Like out to the white line around the hole.

    Randy
    I was looking at the “white” outline as well. I believe that white color is actually lead from my HP’s trying to chamber and slamming into it.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 10-21-2019 at 08:54 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check