Highly Expensive, non-toxic idea

[Walks]

I just read this entire post.

My Head hurts. Too much thinking for me.

[waksupi]

The North Dakota thing,
https://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/



^ I don't see why not, I'd try it if I had my stuff set up. It melts at a very low temp. It's a tinge lighter than copper but not terribly.

Research that ND thing further, you will find it was debunked.

[TheJournier]

I searched a little nothing on Google that said ND was wrong.

Here is a recent paper 2018 says pregnant women and children up to 7 or so shouldn't

Pg.28 under recomendation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...5/#!po=64.4737

[Edward]

Science is great progress my dude. I don't think it will be viable and I think most reasonable people will realize this wouldn't be very commercially viable bullet. Specially when the average joe would be happy with shooting/practicing with straight copper bullets. As said below.

Besides I have a feeling that by the time we go asteroid mining and the gold market floods for these resources. We'll start all shooting 100% pure gold because it technically would be a better projectile because of its density and it is just as soft as straight gliding metal from FMJs.


That's a generious estimate though. $90 would be the brass, and the most expensive copper 82/18 copper/platinum alloy. I may actually get it down to about 40 or 50 copper bullets. And that would be a saving considering, I can recover what I shot 9 times out 10 if I hit. I should have loads of practice with lead which is mimicked by that metal.


Yeah we've eaten and done things we shouldn't have way back when. I watched a casting tutorial just now, and the kid was literally decked out to prevent himself from breathing in any lead fumes from casting.

As soon as you said (DUDE) I understand why you said lead is on it"s on the way out for hunting ,but in the USA lead is still the most used (boolit component) . Only in California I understand it causes mass hysteria

[rking22]

That ND study admitted they had no controls and therefore indeterminate results. Do you really expect them to do a study($$$) then report “oops, forgot the control group” need more $$$ for another study. They did a study and reported the only “safe” thing they could. Can’t risk saying the chances are minuscule carry on as before in today’s lawsuit infested world. The fear of lawyers is causing everyone to worry themselves into sickness worrying about EVERYTHING”. If the op is afraid of losing 4 oz of bloodshot meat and willing to spend 90$ for a bullet to avoid that, fine by me. I will continue as before with balanced alloy cast bullets and my blood lead tests indicate I do not have an issue.

[TheJournier]

As soon as you said (DUDE) I understand why you said lead is on it"s on the way out for hunting ,but in the USA lead is still the most used (boolit component) . Only in California I understand it causes mass hysteria

That's common vernacular, don't know what you're supposed to get out of that. But I'll have to say the fact that even though Arizona and Utah don't ban lead ammo, it is strongly encouraged speaks volumes.

BTW I'm not from California, and am from the US.

[waksupi]

I remember grand dad carried three WW1 German machine gun slugs in him until he died at 74. It must work pretty slow.

[TheJournier]

More than likely they were FMJ so that has some impact vs hollow points

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4624950/

it still affects blood lead levels.

https://www.rarediseasesjournal.com/...se-report.html

Some people have gotten sick over it. Sure variance in how lead gets metabolized and sometimes it is masked by other mild symptoms (it contributes to a lot motor impairments and heart problems) etc.

[JimB..]

So here’s the thing IMHO, this is a pure science question.

There is no reasonably anticipated benefit whatsoever, you just want to figure out if you can make something that’s as good a bullet material as lead at any cost, and you don’t want an existing solution like a copper solid.

I suggest that you stop trying to rationalize what you want to do, and just do it. If it works, get the patent and maybe one day someone will find a use for it.

If I’m wrong and you either really believe the anti-lead pseudo science or are just trolling, well good luck to yah.

[gwpercle]

The Lone Ranger (Clayton Moore) used silver boolits ...he was so environmentally sensitive and set such a great example for us to follow... decades before CA did their study and deemed lead boolits will kill you ! My Hero...
Hi-Yo Silver ... Away !
Gary

[Valornor]

Most of the “Heavy Metals” and metals we might consider “Precious” are poisonous to some degree. Since they are rare the body doesn’t have much of a tolerance for them and they can cause issues at pretty low concentrations.

Personally I’d love to experiment with gold bullets, but alas my budget and my wife say “No”.

As others have said, don’t try to justify it with environmental or health reasons. Just do it because there hasn’t been much done on that side of things due to the material cost.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[TheJournier]

Most of the “Heavy Metals” and metals we might consider “Precious” are poisonous to some degree. Since they are rare the body doesn’t have much of a tolerance for them and they can cause issues at pretty low concentrations.

Silver is toxic somewhat (you really have to be trying to overdose, it is often used in medicine for burns). But essentially platinum, silver, gold whilst being heavy metals are VERY inert and refered to as "noble metals". Platinum even has a surgical aplication.
~ so no not really. Think of it this way, it is often used in jewelry and what not, and gold for example is really resistant to acids. People eat gold. I mean to a certain degree iron can be toxic but alas it isn't to the degree lead is.

Anyhow I've update my ideas. One should be much much more affordable. I'm no longer even considering gold whatsoever.


Research Update
So this is again running with the notion that I can match the ballistic profile and kinetic energy of a lead bullet but with using non-lead metals. The idea is to make lead and non bullets synonymous in terms of ran kinetic energy, ballistic profile.

#1) Tungsten-core, bismuth cast bullets (most seriously thought out idea I've had yet)

How they will be made.

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free...ismuth-12-tin/

88%/12% bismuth/tin will be act as the core volume of the bullet.

They will be made just like casting a regular lead bullet. Then hollowed out via drill and a chunk of tungsten rod will be inserted and sealed in. The tungsten chunk should bump it up to lead density easy. the rod does not have to be very long.

All in all I think we are talking 1-2 dollars a bullet and the tungsten rod (2-5mm), if found should be 100% recoverable as it hard and any bismuth glued on will melt off of tungsten. It should also break apart a lot like lead or hollow points because of the differing pieces.

This will likely be the very first thing I try.

[Valornor]

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseas...tal-poisoning/

Depends on the mode of exposure. You won’t get gold poisoning from getting shot with a bullet, but if you work around gold, grind it, polish it, smelt it, pretty much anything that releases gold in microscopic particles, it has the potential to cause issues. This is true of most metals.

The one thing that hasn’t been mentioned but you need to be careful of is making a bullet that is considered Armor Piercing,


The GCA defines “armor piercing ammunition” as:

“(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”


It doesn’t matter if you never intend to shoot the bullet from a pistol, it just means if it can be shot from a pistol. Using tungsten in a bullet is a no-no.




Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[john.k]

The commonest non lead bullet is what the military use,steel jacket,sintered iron core,or soft iron core.very cheap,but need serious machinery to make......which is of no account ........Incidentally,zinc can be drawn like brass,to make a tough tenacious ,non brittle materal,similar to drawn brass,and then annealed to make a soft pliable wire.Which is used for zinc spraying.

[TheJournier]

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseas...tal-poisoning/

Depends on the mode of exposure. You won’t get gold poisoning from getting shot with a bullet, but if you work around gold, grind it, polish it, smelt it, pretty much anything that releases gold in microscopic particles, it has the potential to cause issues. This is true of most metals.

The one thing that hasn’t been mentioned but you need to be careful of is making a bullet that is considered Armor Piercing,


The GCA defines “armor piercing ammunition” as:

“(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”




Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

it would be less than 25% at just 20% and it would not pass any sort of penetration tests they did any for it. It is also chambered in a rifle not pistol. Also some "copper" lead free bullets would fail this as they are made from "gliding metal" which is bronze/brass. 80% bismuth/ 20% tungsten by weight.

[megasupermagnum]

My thoughts? This thread is insane. Bad idea, full of misinformation. Lead is not on it's way out! It won't be until something comparable is come up with. Barnes bullets are super expensive, and only work well in certain calibers, mainly the highest velocity rifles. Bismuth/Tin is also quite expensive, and has problems of it's own. I don't know what gold mining asteroid you've been on, but I can guarantee lead will not be replaced by gold, silver, or platinum in any amount or form.

[Valornor]

The ATF doesn’t do penetration tests to determine what is AP and what isn’t. They strictly follow the letter of the law.

Barnes use to make Brass solids for .338-.458 cal for use in African game for years until the ATF came back an said nope, “Someone makes a pistol that they can be shot from”

Likely it was a Thompson Center Contender or something similar.

A lot of 5.56x39 was banned from importation as it was considered AP due to people making AK pistols.

It’s not whether or not you intend to fire it from a pistol, it’s whether or not it can be fired from a pistol.

The 5% or 10% zinc thats in guilding Copper has been something that has been a grey area. Technically, it’s a brass, but ATF allows it to be produced. Barnes uses pure copper, but Hornady and some others use Guilding copper in their GMX bullets.

The laws around AP stuff boils down to 1) the materials used in the bullets construction 2) the jacket design 3) can it be fired in a pistol

It pretty much only has to run afoul of two of those criteria before it’s no bueno.


M855 is considered AP, but it has a sporting exemption. The ATF was considering pulling the exemption recently but backed down after public outcry.


You can do what you want, I’m just giving a heads up. Like I said, I love to see where your experiments go.




Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[44Blam]

Seems like a pointed tungsten rod in soft metal would be an armor piercing round...

[TheJournier]

The commonest non lead bullet is what the military use,steel jacket,sintered iron core,or soft iron core.very cheap,but need serious machinery to make......which is of no account ........Incidentally,zinc can be drawn like brass,to make a tough tenacious ,non brittle materal,similar to drawn brass,and then annealed to make a soft pliable wire.Which is used for zinc spraying.

I missed yeah this, I saw this actually and considered using this as well. However it melts a bit hotter than lead and is lighter than bismuth. Which means I have to use more dense metal to get lead density.

Fundamentally the idea is to make lead and this bullet interchangeable. So, if you have or want to hunt with a non-lead bullet, you wouldn't have to adjust much because the bullets have equivalent density so their trajectories would be extremely similar. No re-zeroing or whatever required and also similar kinetic energy behind each shot.

--However the metalurgy of the bullet may change the bullet speeds a bit as it rubs against the barrel.

~ even more handy if you're the one handloading each round because you would be very consistent or should be anyway.

The ATF doesn’t do penetration tests to determine what is AP and what isn’t. They strictly follow the letter of the law.

Barnes use to make Brass solids for .338-.458 cal for use in African game for years until the ATF came back an said nope, “Someone makes a pistol that they can be shot from”

Likely it was a Thompson Center Contender or something similar.

Ah I see now, thanks for the heads up, in any case. It is a little confusing. I find the whole language of that law bizarre. For one it mentions nothing about possession is fine but then mentions stuff like importation ect. and manufacturing are bad. So I thought it best to look up what the atf means by manufacturing. I think the mean as if for commercial use. With intent to sell or you are IDK handing out these bullets around for testing in your corporation or something?

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/wh...cense-required

Turns out it is ok if you have the proper FFL, lvl 6. Anyhow from what I see I really don't see how what I'm proposing is anything really different from the M855 it's a blunt tip rod. More than likely glued in the rear of the bullet meant to add density to the projectile but not harden it for penetrating body armor.

[Bama]

Research Update
So this is again running with the notion that I can match the ballistic profile and kinetic energy of a lead bullet but with using non-lead metals. The idea is to make lead and non bullets synonymous in terms of ran kinetic energy, ballistic profile.

#1) Tungsten-core, bismuth cast bullets (most seriously thought out idea I've had yet)

How they will be made.

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free...ismuth-12-tin/

88%/12% bismuth/tin will be act as the volume of the bullet. While tungsten is merely the weight.

They will be made just like casting a regular lead bullet. Then hollowed out via drill and a chunk of tungsten rod will be inserted and sealed in. The tungsten chunk should bump it up to lead density easy. the rod does not have to be very long.

All in all I think we are talking 1-2 dollars a bullet and the tungsten rod (2-5mm), if found should be 100% recoverable as it hard and any bismuth glued on will melt off of tungsten. It shouldn't also break apart a lot like lead or hollow points because of the differing pieces.

This will likely be the very first thing I try.

#2) Silver/platinum alloy rounds
This will be done more than likely, for the lols. But it more than likely will not be a hunting round I use if the Tungsten core bismuth rounds work. But essentially the will be made from silver 90/10 from fine materials. The rounds will also likely be milled.
30-40$ a round (308, 150 grain standard). I may do this in a smaller caliber to cut costs maybe 243.

Thoughts?

Another thing to consider is the added core. Is it possible that it could be considered as armor piercing and if so could be serious unneeded trouble.