Highly Expensive, non-toxic idea

[nueces5]

If you are going to make those golden boolits, please shoot me

[JimB..]

Copper bullets such as Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX are swaged not machined. Definitely a harder material to cold work but it is done.

I was thinking about Cutting Edge and Lehigh, both of which I believe are machined and not swaged. Didn’t know that Hornady and Barnes offered copper solids.

[Mr_Sheesh]

You just need a plasma rifle or laser cannon

[Valornor]

Gotcha, yeah I know some companies machine their copper monolithics. Copper can be swaged it just takes a lot more force.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[uscra112]

Why not use silver, like the Lone Ranger?

[TheJournier]

You just need a plasma rifle or laser cannon

If only. That would be precooked deer when you shot one. But alas lazers tend to not be very lethal unless they are huge.

If you are going to make those golden boolits, please shoot me

No, Why?

Copper bullets such as Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX are swaged not machined. Definitely a harder material to cold work but it is done.

I have played around with jacketed zinc bullets, as a lead free alternative to solid copper. Pure zinc tends to be quite brittle, so it’ll expand but it tends to break up quickly. You have to keep the zinc pure as to get the highest density. Really makes a great bullet for shooting steel, it’s softer on steel then lead is. You can check out Barnes Range AR, they use a zinc core bullet.

As far as using a precious metal for bullets. If it wasn’t so expensive you’d probably find it on the market. After all the military uses, or at least, used to use, depleted uranium as cores for some of its AP rounds. High sectional density, and Uranium has some pretty unique characteristics when it impacts something aiding in its ability to penetrate armor. Obviously not, non toxic.

I think probably next generation bullets are going to use a poly metallic core and jacket. Instead of alloying they use blended metal powders to get the density and weight they are after, mixed with a polymer, and then baked to bond everything. The bullets have some pretty unique shapes that would be difficult if not impossible to swage, and the terminal ballistics match if not exceed conventional bullet designs.

That would be an interesting take. But I think it would take some fairly expensive metals to compensate. Like Osmium or Iridium. Honestly if I could alloy those metals I would as they are even cheaper and denser, because there's such a limited use for them. The problem is, these metals are so hard to smelt and just hard. Also there's the impact, how would that work exactly, all those metal powder scattered everywhere. Tungsten would also be another choice too for the "powder" which is pretty inexpensive, but the dirty little secret about it is, it like lead is toxic.

Why not use silver, like the Lone Ranger?

Ah Silver. I actually start to do cost calculations for silver believe it or not. I would need to make approximately 1lb of alloy with silver. Silver has a density of 10.49 g/cm^3, lead has 11.35 g/cm^3. It would take a very light alloy with platinum to get it to the right weight. And it is cheaper because it takes even less platinum. Were talking 10% so that bring the cost of making a bullet down to around 34.08 vs 65.36 for copper. I was wrong about bismuth it would cost about 104.64 per bullet.. yikes.

[mdi]

Welcome to castboolits. Reading the OP I had a thought I haven't seen mentioned.

Bismuth/tin which has suspect malleability

If by malleability you mean expansion on target, many boolit casters don't rely on bullet expansion for effectiveness on target. I don't hunt anymore, but I reload and use a bullet that has a profile that does enough tissue damage. I have 2 molds for Ranch Dog design bullets (240 and 265 gr.), RNFP designed for hunting that work without depending on alloy soft enough to expand on impact.

I appreciate reloaders/casters that "think outside the box", as a bunch of things we use/do every day started with "I wonder if...". I'm sure there are many members that use a stinky metal preserver for a bullet lube and some that use beer can material for gas checks. Don't let the nay-sayers get you down...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

So reading through various research I read we currently have only 2 types of viable nontoxic bullets. These round fascinate me, because you can essentially save all of the meat from what you kill and not worry about cutting out "bad meat" because of the damage from lead. 9 times out 10.

...

Thoughts?

TheJournier,
Welcome to the forum.
It sounds like you bring lot's of clever ideas. I eagerly await reading about any tests you eventually do.

My thoughts?
I am not concerned about lead contamination of game meat, as I believe the published warnings of such are mostly politically motivated. I have yet to see an actual study where the meat is tested and/or if the tested concentration, if ingested, will transfer to the bloodstream in a unacceptable amount. All I've read is warnings put out by bureaucratic agencies. I suppose I could be wrong? I am open to correction on that.

More thoughts.
Besides casting, reloading, tumbling used cases with spent Primers intact...all instances where I have come into contact with lead and/or ingest/breathe it, I also worked for a circuit company for a decade, which used a wave solder machine using a Lead alloy solder during that entire time. Part of my duties were to operate as well as maintain, and occasionally clean the solder pot. That was the 80s and early 90s, and the typical handling precautions "of that time", were taken (things are much more stringent now). All my Blood-Lead test results were within Government maximums and luckily I've never had any symptoms of lead blood poisoning.
. Also, as others have mentioned, Over the decades, I have chewed on lead bird-shot in Ducks and Pheasants that were harvested with a shotgun...and as a Youth, while fishing with lead split-shot, I've used to teeth to clench them to the line. I suspect many people in the last hundred years, who have lived in fly-over country, have done the same...there hasn't been a huge breakout of Lead poisoning from those activities...BUT the reported instances of Lead poisoning have been in and near urban centers and were caused by Leaded Gasoline, and also some instances were from children consuming/inhaling old dry house paint that contained lead...both of which are no longer being manufactured.

[TheJournier]

TheJournier,


My thoughts?
I am not concerned about lead contamination of game meat, as I believe the published warnings of such are mostly politically motivated. I have yet to see an actual study where the meat is tested and/or if the tested concentration, if ingested, will transfer to the bloodstream in a unacceptable amount. All I've read is warnings put out by bureaucratic agencies. I suppose I could be wrong? I am open to correction on that.

Well I'm not going to teach an older man how to make babies. But, when you say that this is a political stunt, my wonder is what exactly would be the end goal. There has to be a better notion than "STOP SHOOTING LEAD BULLETS!". As someone else posted, you could use different metals, and maybe a new industry standard to bullet making is achieved via. Copper, Zinc/tin, bismuth or whatever. If that happens - me shooting denser bullets would be a moot point.

I think the science is there, it's always been there. Lead in its pure form isn't good as well as impure forms found in chemical salts, I mean cities are replacing lead pipes because of the health hazard. There's an advisory of how pregnant women shouldn't eat wild game because of lead, and birds are dying from eat leftovers. Lead has no biological use in our body, and it's toxic it's and not just inert our body does something it should with it.

You also have to consider lead poisoning is a spectrum, it's not an all or nothing thing where X level means your are healthy and x level means you are unhealthy. Having no lead in your body is a good thing, just a lower levels puts you at less of a risk for developing lead poisoning.

[Burnt Fingers]

How are you going to handle these alloys? What are you going to use to melt them? Mold them?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well I'm not going to teach an older man how to make babies. But, when you say that this is a political stunt, my wonder is what exactly would be the end goal. There has to be a better notion than "STOP SHOOTING LEAD BULLETS!". As someone else posted, you could use different metals, and maybe a new industry standard to bullet making is achieved via. Copper, Zinc/tin, bismuth or whatever. If that happens - me shooting denser bullets would be a moot point.

I think the science is there, it's always been there. Lead in its pure form isn't good as well as impure forms found in chemical salts, I mean cities are replacing lead pipes because of the health hazard. There's an advisory of how pregnant women shouldn't eat wild game because of lead, and birds are dying from eat leftovers. Lead has no biological use in our body, and it's toxic it's and not just inert our body does something it should with it.

You also have to consider lead poisoning is a spectrum, it's not an all or nothing thing where X level means your are healthy and x level means you are unhealthy. Having no lead in your body is a good thing, just a lower levels puts you at less of a risk for developing lead poisoning.

Again, I think you bring lot's of clever ideas (I am serious, no sarcasm). I eagerly await reading about any tests you eventually do.

but you did ask for my thoughts, I gave them.
I now feel compelled to add the following.
First, "politically motivated" is different than a "political stunt"...please don't change my words.

The "end goal" is more control over a citizen's activities.
I suspect the desire to ban all hunting from regular citizens isn't far beyond a Lead ammo ban. If you look at who is pushing for Lead ammo bans, and what else those groups say about human activity, I believe the thought of a future hunting ban would be obvious. It also should be obvious, when lies are used to sell the "end goal".

Below is some "science"

Research indicates no Lead threat in hunted game
http://www.huntfortruth.org/research...n-hunted-game/

2013 study: Lead in game meat does not present a human health hazard.
http://media.wix.com/ugd/e4faa6_4903...74c430f3b4.pdf

[tomme boy]

The chemicals they are using to treat the water are the same ones that leeching the lead and other chemicals into the water. All of these gov't mandates are some of the same reasons that water, sewer, electricity, propane kerosene, gas,....... keep raising in price. Only reason lead is killing birds is the gizzard they have to digest food. It grinds the oxide off the lead and then it gets into their system. Kind of funny how lead in the water has only just began to be a problem in the last few years. These cities have always had it in the pipes. But NOW it is a problem???? I wonder why??

[Green Frog]

At the risk of sounding like a smart aleck (or worse) if you can recover the fired bullets with a high percentage success rate, why worry about environmental contamination? It has been shown for a couple of centuries now that meat surrounding the (lead based) doesn’t become significantly contaminated, so that’s pretty much a non-issue. Just wonderin’.

Froggie

[TheJournier]

Ok, so politics first, then I'll answer the how I'll make precious bullets later post:

I suspect the desire to ban all hunting from regular citizens isn't far beyond a Lead ammo ban.

I think this is very much overstated. To state rational as to why the whole non-lead thing = gun/hunting ban is very much overstated is the fact that the park service often culls animals to help with overpopulation in a certain area. That is, if Joe doesn't pay for a hunting permit and goes hunting legally (which also funds the park service) what will wind up happening, the parks themselves will start killing game. If you even take it further there's other ways of hunting via bow and airgun (which are fairly easy to make lead free or are inherently lead free).

As for the articles, I found the sites very political leaning and strongly about disproving the utility of leadfree bullets based on the perceived notion here. Also the lack of a fully quoted/linked source is a highly disconcerting. No worries though I did read the actual research study that was significantly beefier, and I don't think it exactly disproves or proves either side and mainly states what I already suspected, cut away the lead and you should be fine. This is also based on what we currently know about lead Circa 2012 not 2013 as the webpage article stated and it is orginally from Sweden which now has a ban on lead shot (as in shotguns). Also some of his samples *not-all had a bioavailability higher than 1mg/kg. He also stated, that it was highly inaccurate and that if you cut away (as we traditionally do) the meat closest to the gunshot it becomes negligible.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=2540062

The chemicals they are using to treat the water are the same ones that leeching the lead

Or lack there of, in Flint... where some of my family is from. They recently had water quality issues because they failed to treat the water properly to prevent lead from leaching into the water supply. Lead actually quite readily reacts with acid particularly HCl to form a toxic salt (PbCl2). I know there's a high distrust of chemicals, sometimes they are necessary in order to prevent certain reactions from happening. Everything on this planet is chemistry. Also exposure to lead isn't good, it's like UV or radiation, less is good ALWAYS as it causes x amount of cell damage. There have been people who have gotten lead poisoning from gunshots (that is metallic lead not salt). Granted, having a bullet that stays in your body for months vs. something that passes in 24-72 hrs are 2 different things but still.

Also birds have smaller bodies, so they are more susceptible to lead poisoning than say an elephant. Lead does dissolve in our body and become a salt, our stomach for one has a small amount of HCl which in turn become PbCL2, a toxic salt.

if you can recover the fired bullets with a high percentage success rate

In short it is hard, particularly with lead. Lead is soft and flakes off into little pieces when hit hard enough. Copper, silver, and gold are harder and just have different metallurgical properties and tends to retain their shape better when shot.

^Bismuth has the same problem as lead it is just a bit more brittle so it blows apart into chucks when shot. Any how vid below shows this property.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCMUrp58cPg

Anyhow we're all friends here I'm not going to try to convince you that you should worry about lead. It is more to do with my neurosis, and yes this is more of a case of "Look guys I shot silver/plat bullets!!! cooooll". When it is all said and done, I'll probably wind up using copper rounds and correcting/accounting for their differing ballistics. Ok now the HOW i do this questions!!!

[mdi]

I can only speak about the lead bullet ban in CA. The ban was quietly pushed through by politicians with a lot of anti-hunter, anti-gun "do-gooders" that funneled quite a bit of money into their campaigns. The original excuse was the CA buzzard was dying from lead poisoning from eating gut piles that contained lead bullets (although this "reasoning" was not made public right away, nor was there seen any "real"studies published until after the fact).The same thing happened with the ban on lead wheel weights. Some "environmentalists" claimed the evil little imps flew off cars and trucks, landed on the road, and were ground to powder by passing vehicles. Then the rains came and washed the ground/powdered lead into the ground and eventually contaminating the ground water and everybody, every thing within 2 miles of a major highway got lead poisoning. Politicians have promoted the lead "poisoning" scare for different reasons, mainly to pander votes from ignorant voters...

[waksupi]

I wonder if Britannia metal would work? It's what modern pewter is made of, and is pretty available in junk shops and yard sales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_metal

[johnho]

How come I wasn't told all this when I was buying all those split shot to bite on my fishing lines when I was a kid ( a LONG time ago)? I'm not going to worry about any of this. Now pass my seizure meds.

[TheJournier]

How are you going to handle these alloys? What are you going to use to melt them? Mold them?

In short the answer is it's mold, or forge/machine them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Mk7w_c3tI

The thought is to use the platinum as the base, and slowly dilute it out by melting more and more silver into it. From there I can.

1.) Simply cast them and try to make sure that I cast them slightly larger than the finished bullet and buff/cut out the surface air bubbles like in the video. Cut them down to size via lathe.

2.) Forge/swage them in to shape. Silver is softer than copper, and you can heat the metal if necessary to get it into shape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiW0w7ysxo&t=108s

It'll take a bit of experimentation for sure. Alloying it shouldn't be a problem as jewelers do it all the time.

[dondiego]

Well I'm not going to teach an older man how to make babies. But, when you say that this is a political stunt, my wonder is what exactly would be the end goal. There has to be a better notion than "STOP SHOOTING LEAD BULLETS!". As someone else posted, you could use different metals, and maybe a new industry standard to bullet making is achieved via. Copper, Zinc/tin, bismuth or whatever. If that happens - me shooting denser bullets would be a moot point.

I think the science is there, it's always been there. Lead in its pure form isn't good as well as impure forms found in chemical salts, I mean cities are replacing lead pipes because of the health hazard. There's an advisory of how pregnant women shouldn't eat wild game because of lead, and birds are dying from eat leftovers. Lead has no biological use in our body, and it's toxic it's and not just inert our body does something it should with it.

You also have to consider lead poisoning is a spectrum, it's not an all or nothing thing where X level means your are healthy and x level means you are unhealthy. Having no lead in your body is a good thing, just a lower levels puts you at less of a risk for developing lead poisoning.

Can you provide an article of proof of this advisory? I have never heard of it.

[TheJournier]

Can you provide an article of proof of this advisory? I have never heard of it.

The North Dakota thing,
https://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/

I wonder if Britannia metal would work? It's what modern pewter is made of, and is pretty available in junk shops and yard sales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_metal

^ I don't see why not, I'd try it if I had my stuff set up. It melts at a very low temp. It's a tinge lighter than copper but not terribly.