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Thread: God created evil

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    God created evil

    I am not sure why He created evil but He created everything.

    Maybe we need evil so we can appreciate goodness. Just as we need darkness to appreciate light. Or hate to appreciate love.

    Many believe the first sin occurred when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, but they are incorrect. The first sin occurred in Heaven. It caused Satan and a third of the angels to be driven out of Heaven to earth. Without that (sin of pride) occurring, Satan would not have existed to tempt Eve.

    If there was no suffering, pain, or death in the world, would man appreciate God and obey Him....obviously not...as that was what Adam and Eve had, and they squandered it within a few days of creation.

    I wonder if God created evil so we could find Him. It makes the most sense to me. For He is goodness; but man needs to understand and experience evil to find the way to Him.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Without darkness, how do you appreciate light?

    Without evil how can you understand good and the difference between them?

    What incentive is there to try to work to be better than we are if all is a flat gray featureless plain? No light, no dark, no good, no evil, no highs, no lows?

    I know my faith and belief have changed me considerably over the last 5 years. I have to think almost all of it was positive.
    Yes I'm still a sinner, and yes I still stumble, trip, fail and fall daily. But not as often as before. Heck my wife and I hardly fight at all. And when we do instead of the hours long battle royale's we used to have it is 5 minutes, over and done. Apologized for, forgiven and forgotten. And we go back to loving and caring for each other.

    But every coin has to has 2 sides. Without contrast what do you have?

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


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    I would say that God created the possibility for evil in that he made creatures with free will.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I would say that God created the possibility for evil in that he made creatures with free will.
    Interesting take and the one normally used to describe man. I offer the following thoughts.

    If the search for knowledge is a good thing, the "sin" of eating from the Tree of Knowledge seems predestined, and God knew that. The sin of pride was still, in my mind, the original sin. It affected one third of the angels in Heaven. And that was not a small number:

    According to Revelation 5:11, there are many angels:
    11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand.

    We are forced to conclude that angels were not perfect and had free will. Tens of thousands chose to sin within a few days of creation. It appears mankind was destined to sin eventually. I believe God knew that would happen. Free will is the "excuse" used to beat down man for being human and imperfect but man was doomed from the beginning. We were "designed" to sin by the very nature that God gave us...to seek knowledge, understanding and truth.

    I wrestle with tens of thousands of angels committing such a foolish sin (sin of pride) so soon after creation. What were they thinking!

    It seems the sin of disobedience committed by Adam and Eve, was minor in comparison. The resulting punishments would not only be suffered by Adam and Eve, but carry on to the rest of mankind until evil is at last defeated.

    Evil is a necessary component of Gods plan. Our free will makes us susceptible to it, and if we are not careful, evil will ruin our lives here on earth and for eternity.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    He gave us all a free will for a purpose.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Interesting take and the one normally used to describe man. I offer the following thoughts.

    If the search for knowledge is a good thing, the "sin" of eating from the Tree of Knowledge seems predestined, and God knew that. The sin of pride was still, in my mind, the original sin. It affected one third of the angels in Heaven. And that was not a small number:

    According to Revelation 5:11, there are many angels:
    11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand.

    We are forced to conclude that angels were not perfect and had free will. Tens of thousands chose to sin within a few days of creation. It appears mankind was destined to sin eventually. I believe God knew that would happen. Free will is the "excuse" used to beat down man for being human and imperfect but man was doomed from the beginning. We were "designed" to sin by the very nature that God gave us...to seek knowledge, understanding and truth.

    I wrestle with tens of thousands of angels committing such a foolish sin (sin of pride) so soon after creation. What were they thinking!

    It seems the sin of disobedience committed by Adam and Eve, was minor in comparison. The resulting punishments would not only be suffered by Adam and Eve, but carry on to the rest of mankind until evil is at last defeated.

    Evil is a necessary component of Gods plan. Our free will makes us susceptible to it, and if we are not careful, evil will ruin our lives here on earth and for eternity.
    It was God’s intention that man learn the difference between good and evil. The learning was to take place within the bounds that he prescribed. Man was to obey God’s directions (e.g., don’t eat from a certain tree--certainly more commands were to come). When man disobeyed, he was placed on another path of learning. It was a much more difficult path because it brought in willing participation in sin. With that participation, came pain, suffering, hard work and death. Man was to learn why sin is harmful.

    Jesus’ path of learning followed God’s original intention. Jesus obeyed God’s commands wholly and learned the difference between good and evil without being a sinner. This was what God wanted for Adam and Eve. Jesus suffered because of the sin in the world, but was not a willing participant in sin as are the rest of us. He was tempted as Adam was in the Garden, but passed every test (remember how Satan misquoted God to Jesus as he had to Eve).

    Man is immersed in sin his whole life. He can see the adverse results of sin. Therefore, redeemed men will not engage in sin in the Age to come. He will have gained the knowledge God wanted him to have. Unfortunately, he learned it the hard way.

    Just for thought: It is possible that when Jesus was perfected (i.e., met every challenge) he was to be taken up into heaven to live (Luke 9:31). This might have been the plan for Adam and Eve and their children if they followed God’s path--transition to heaven without dying. Who knows?

    The Bible simply does not give details about the fall of Satan or the angels. I know people like to quote from Isaiah 14, but that whole passage is about the king of Babylon not Satan. Maybe pride was Satan’s problem, maybe jealously. I often wonder if the fall of Man and the fall of Satan were from the same event (temptation in the Garden of Eden). There is no time given for the fall of the angels. It could have happened a billion years after their creation.

    The Bible doesn’t give a whole lot of information on the creation of angels either. How long before man? Were they created all at once or over a long period of time, etc.? We have no idea about their experiences either. How do they live their lives? Heck, we don’t even know what humans will be doing in heaven. I think we can be confident that they were created without a sinful nature. That seems to have changed for some of them.

    The big question is why is man redeemed and not the angels?

    ----Of course, all this is based on taking the Genesis account quite literally, which I do. Paul seemed to also.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 10-08-2019 at 06:01 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master


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    Ickiszrulz,

    You always make me think....

    Just curious. Your comment about "There is no time given for the fall of the angels. It could have happened a billion years after their creation." leads me to believe you do not believe that creation occurred in 6-24 hr days as related in Genesis, or the young earth theory. There were only a few 24 hr days before before Satan and the corrupted angels were cast from heaven and the tempting of Adam and Eve. It is commonly held that the angels were created before the earth was created. If we look in the book of Job, we read this: “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth… when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” It seems likely that these words refer to angels. If they were singing for joy at the foundation of the Earth, then they possibly saw most of creation happen.



    Thanks,
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy Cast_outlaw's Avatar
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    If it’s true that angles don’t have free will how did lucifer fall from grace uless god made him so that make the devil nothing more than gods left hand tempting and smiting the earth

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    The concept of "free will" amazes me. Did you choose your hour or location of birth, your parents, your eye color, your body style, or a million other things that you have no control over? If free will existed, would anyone work in the sewers? No, we'd all be independently wealthy movie stars. I believe in fate, destiny or whatever you want to call it. I have faith that fate rules. As far as good and evil - in nature, there is a balance. That's why planets are round - equal forces working equally on all sides. If there was only good, the universe would be out of balance, and a portion of what we now call "good" would naturally be designated as "evil." Can faith and fate work together? Yes. I believe there is a plan, controlled by God, and when things go bad, I fall back on my Fate Theory - all things happen for a reason. I believe that the human mind can no more grasp the true concept of God than a fish in a fishbowl can understand the computer he (or she) sees across the room.
    When we die, I believe we go back to where we were (or what we were) before birth.
    I would say that the major difference in what I believe and what "believers" believe is that I have an unquestionable faith in God - if it happens, He directed it to happen, good or evil. I do not necessarily believe in sin, especially Original Sin (I was raised Catholic). We are what we are, what we were meant to be. We will do what we were meant to do, good or evil.
    It gets me through the day.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    NO, God did not "create evil".

    Jesus created all things that were created. But doing wrong, like doing right, comes from a state of mind that rises within us; mindsets are not created "things" that require His hand.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Ickiszrulz,

    You always make me think....

    Just curious. Your comment about "There is no time given for the fall of the angels. It could have happened a billion years after their creation." leads me to believe you do not believe that creation occurred in 6-24 hr days as related in Genesis, or the young earth theory. There were only a few 24 hr days before before Satan and the corrupted angels were cast from heaven and the tempting of Adam and Eve. It is commonly held that the angels were created before the earth was created. If we look in the book of Job, we read this: “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth… when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” It seems likely that these words refer to angels. If they were singing for joy at the foundation of the Earth, then they possibly saw most of creation happen.



    Thanks,
    I can only speculate, but here are my thoughts on what might have happened.

    God created the earth (Genesis 1:1) and populated it with animals, plants, etc. giving dominion of the earth to the creatures we know as angels. The rebellion of a portion of the angels led to the in-habitability of the earth leaving it covered in water and darkness and all biological life dead.

    After a period, God repaired the earth (to include new forms of life) over six periods of time as described in Genesis 1:2 onward. This time man was given dominion of the earth.

    A scenario like this would account for the extreme age of the earth and the weird fossil record that seem at odds with the Genesis account of creation.

    I don't believe the earth is only 10K years old. But I don't believe humans evolved from lower forms of life either. I think we are missing big pieces of information about creation that might just look like what I described above.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cast_outlaw View Post
    If it’s true that angles don’t have free will how did lucifer fall from grace uless god made him so that make the devil nothing more than gods left hand tempting and smiting the earth
    because lucifer wanted to be greater that God......

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Just as dark is the absence of light and spiritual death is a separation from God, perhaps evil is not a thing but rather the absence of a thing.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile View Post
    1 Timothy 6:16, James 1:13. God did not create evil. Dverna, I am sure you are a nice guy, but do you ever consider checking your Bible before you stir the pot around here? I mean, come on, really?

    With the utmost respect,

    exile
    It is clear, God created everything. God is the creator of the universe and all that is in it. It does not matter what the Bible might say, God created evil. God may have created evil for a good reason. It is hard to know what is Gods plan. Some think they can find it in the Bible but I think they are mistaken.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    because Lucifer wanted to be greater that God And Lucifer was the General in God's chain of command. It is alluded that Lucifer was jealous of God creating Man with a special plan. Scripture does state that Man is more 'loved'/important than angels. Note the the Bible states angels can ONLY be in one place at a time - not a restriction for God.
    Whatever!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    Evil is the rejection of God.
    Nothing more, nothing less.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Evil is the rejection of God sic. as the BOSS.
    Nothing more, nothing less.
    Many accept there is a God, not all accept He is the Boss of Eternity!
    Whatever!

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Nothing more, nothing less.
    Many accept there is a God, not all accept He is the Boss of Eternity!
    That's close, but not entirely accurate.
    Boss, is not how I would discribe my Heavenly Father.
    I love God for who He is, and worship Him as my Heavenly Father.
    A boss, needs nor expects any love from those under his authority, he only expects you to do what you are told.
    If you can not give your love to Him, you should not expect to feel it given back to you.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master

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    He didn't create evil. He created free will. We choose to do evil. With good, how would we know what evil is??

    Shiloh
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  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    The "Perfect Being" creates imperfect lieutenant beings that, even given their more perfect understanding of "The Plan", decide that "The Plan" is NOT perfect, and they part ways.

    And then there's the even less perfect, less informed humans and their problems.

    So I think the actual truth to the universe may be more in line with what Epicurous put forth 2300-ish years ago:

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

    It seems more likely to me that what was created was not good, nor evil, but rather A MESS. Seeking out the guidance of the toddler that made that mess seems less effective than finding your own broom and cleaning up your own corner in the matter that seems best to you.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

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