Cast soft for expansion or let the meplat do the work?

[Jevyod]

I have cast some before a few 9mm bullets, and have cast some 420 grain bullets for my 45-70. I am finding that people basically fall into 2 camps when it comes to hunting with cast. Either let a wide meplat do the work of cavitation, or shoot softer lead/hollowpoint and expect expansion to do the work. Which do you do and why?

I am planning on hunting with a smaller diameter than 45 this year, I want to use a 358 Winchester. So I really am not sure which direction to go. I do have a 230 grain mold with a wide meplat (.275) from noe, and was thinking of not messing too much with trying to soften my lead, and just shooting what I have. I plan on pushing them to the 2000-2100 range simply to increase my range. I do powder-coat, but also have some white label lube on hand.

As to what I have, I have several pounds (maybe 3) of Lyman #2, And 80 lbs of wheel weight lead. I did not sort out the SOWW from the COWW, I would guess the ratio was maybe 70% COWW and 30% SOWW. I also have 30 lbs of what I am pretty sure is Linotype spacers that I can use to harden up the previously mentioned alloy. (I know, I really need to get a hardness tester.)

[RU shooter]

I'd just cast up that bullet with your mix of WW alloy . Not far off from what I shoot in my 35 Rem with a 190 and 200 gr bullet . It will expand some but still hold together and punch through .the way I feel about it if it's a small flat nose go softer , if its a wide flat nose like the ranchdog bullet design it don't matter as much

[Don1357]

Typically what you are shooting at and the range determines what you want your bullet to do.

You want a bullet capable of penetrating as much as needed but no more. A bullet that goes clean through the animal simply failed to do as much damage as possible. If you didn't hit an organ blood loss will be less significant so there is a chance that the critter will be able to run more. On the other hand if the bullet can't penetrate to hit anything important or gets easily deflected by a bone well that ain't gonna do it either. We have Some very hard critters up here in AK so often overkill is the right amount of kill. On the third hand, all things equal an expanding bullet let you get away with more. A less than perfect shot will do more damage.

If your shots are typically over penetrating the target you are not squeezing all the performance you could out of your bullet. I would use softer alloy.

You could always stick to the 45-70. That caliber is what .30 caliber bullets want to be when they grow up to 50% expansion.

[Jevyod]

Typically what you are shooting at and the range determines what you want your bullet to do.

You want a bullet capable of penetrating as much as needed but no more. A bullet that goes clean through the animal simply failed to do as much damage as possible. If you didn't hit an organ blood loss will be less significant so there is a chance that the critter will be able to run more. On the other hand if the bullet can't penetrate to hit anything important or gets easily deflected by a bone well that ain't gonna do it either. We have Some very hard critters up here in AK so often overkill is the right amount of kill. On the third hand, all things equal an expanding bullet let you get away with more. A less than perfect shot will do more damage.

If your shots are typically over penetrating the target you are not squeezing all the performance you could out of your bullet. I would use softer alloy.

You could always stick to the 45-70. That caliber is what .30 caliber bullets want to be when they grow up to 50% expansion.

I made a mistake and sold that 45-70. So biggest bore I have is the 358. Most shots will be at deer, most under 100 yards.

[dverna]

Typically what you are shooting at and the range determines what you want your bullet to do.

You want a bullet capable of penetrating as much as needed but no more. A bullet that goes clean through the animal simply failed to do as much damage as possible. If you didn't hit an organ blood loss will be less significant so there is a chance that the critter will be able to run more. On the other hand if the bullet can't penetrate to hit anything important or gets easily deflected by a bone well that ain't gonna do it either. We have Some very hard critters up here in AK so often overkill is the right amount of kill. On the third hand, all things equal an expanding bullet let you get away with more. A less than perfect shot will do more damage.

If your shots are typically over penetrating the target you are not squeezing all the performance you could out of your bullet. I would use softer alloy.

You could always stick to the 45-70. That caliber is what .30 caliber bullets want to be when they grow up to 50% expansion.

My opinion is a bit different. I prefer a bullet that expands but still exits the animal. Two holes leaking blood seems better than one. And a .35 caliber bullet should be able to do that on deer size game.

[Bloodman14]

Read Goodsteels thread in the Hunting section.

To clarify, Goodsteel has a thread at the top of the "Hunting with Cast Boolit" section. Lots of good info there.

[Outpost75]

Soft bullet with large meplat does not need an HP to expand.

Attachment 249243

[brewer12345]

I'd use your wheelweight alloy, preferably with a wide meplat design. Should do the trick nicely. The one thing I would suggest it to toss in a bit of extra tin. Nothing wrong with making the alloy tougher. If you hot a major bone you do not want it to shatter.

[GregLaROCHE]

As to you getting a hardness tester, that’s a good idea. Especially, if you will using uncertain alloys.
I bought a Lee tester and have been very frustrated using it. I wish I had spent a little more and got one with an easy to read scale. I know a lot of people swear by Lee’s, but not me. I swear at it.
Just my experience and personal opinion.

[Outpost75]

GregLaRouche

When I was a kid Frank Marshall, Jr. was my mentor. His advice for BP loads was

"anything you can scratch with your thumbnail will work."

Over the years I've calibrated the M1 thumbnail against lab Brinnell test equipment and known alloys, and if you can only lightly mark the bullet with the thumbnail it is harder than 10 BHN. If you can actually gouge it a bit with the thumbnail it is softer than 8 BHN.

Frank was also a big believer in the "plink" vs. "thud" drop test of an 1 lb. ingot on the concrete floor of the shop.

A "thud" ingot was no harder than 10 BHN.

A "plink" ingot was harder than 12 BHN and no good for BP.

If you could clamp 1/4 of a 1-lb. ingot in the shop vise and snap it off by striking with a hammer, it was harder than 20 BHN. If the ingot "bent," but didn't snap off, you could use it as-is for smokeless loads, but "thud" and "thumbnail" tests were needed for BP.

Hillbilly hardness testing.

[popper]

I don't shoot any cast s.p., h.p. or c.p. I'm not really a hunter but have tested really hard and really soft decent meplat on some hogs. Conclusion - softest alloy that gives the best accuracy at fps and range you shoot. Perfect hits are near impossible, good are almost as hard, most are well, just hits. Misses don't count. 2 holes are better than 1. How much difference does a 30% larger hole make? How much shrapnel do you want to find? Not talking bullet mass here. If shooting at armored stuff, get a RPG!
A test case, 16 gr 2400 (1800 fps?), 185gr GC large meplat 1% Sb, 30/30. Gut shot, 2 holes, one bigger. Shoulder shot, one hole. Carcass was a few min. dead., ~10ft. Accuracy, 2-3" @ 50. On a live hog, shoulder shot - walk 50 yds to find it. Gut shot, maybe yote bait.

[bmortell]

id put 1lb of the lyman #2 and 9lb of the WW alloy in a pot, since having 3lb of #2 is kinda useless might aswell use it to add tin to the WW, and test the bullets for accuracy air cooled and if its good enough use that. which would give you ~ 3%sb 1%sn, could add more #2 for slight hardness and tin as needed, I wouldn't water drop or heat treat as they would be very hard and im not sure .275" is wide enough to work well as a hard meplat like it would in big bores

[megasupermagnum]

Don't over complicate it. With that rifle, you will have lots of power to spare. Cast with your wheel weight alloy, air cooled, not heat treated, it will be perfect for what you want.

[Old School Big Bore]

It's good to have validation from Outpost75 on the quick & dirty comparative hardness checks I've managed to figure out. Ditto on the straight WW, maybe with a bit more tin if they won't cast pretty. Where and what are you hunting, big bruiser Minnesota whitetails, West Coast or Midwest mulies, central Texas 'dog deer', dwarf FL Coues? Partly elkish with a chance of bears? Nosey minds want to know...

[Jevyod]

Hunting Pa deer. Some doe where I hunt get pretty big. My brother shot one a few years back that we got 75+lbs meat from. Most times we get more like 50-55. We also have plenty of black bear around and hope to sometime try for one as well.

[GhostHawk]

Either or both will work. I do like a little harder for faster loads, ie over 1600 fps. For slower soft works great. And you can't beat a good meplat either hard or soft. Unlike a hollowpoint it won't plug up and fail.

Comes down to what shoots good for you without leading or problems.

[Treetop]

GregLaRouche

When I was a kid Frank Marshall, Jr. was my mentor. His advice for BP loads was

"anything you can scratch with your thumbnail will work."

Over the years I've calibrated the M1 thumbnail against lab Brinnell test equipment and known alloys, and if you can only lightly mark the bullet with the thumbnail it is harder than 10 BHN. If you can actually gouge it a bit with the thumbnail it is softer than 8 BHN.

Frank was also a big believer in the "plink" vs. "thud" drop test of an 1 lb. ingot on the concrete floor of the shop.

A "thud" ingot was no harder than 10 BHN.

A "plink" ingot was harder than 12 BHN and no good for BP.

If you could clamp 1/4 of a 1-lb. ingot in the shop vise and snap it off by striking with a hammer, it was harder than 20 BHN. If the ingot "bent," but didn't snap off, you could use it as-is for smokeless loads, but "thud" and "thumbnail" tests were needed for BP.

Hillbilly hardness testing.

Solid information, right here! Thanks again, Outpost75.

Semper Fi, Treetop

[Petrol & Powder]

Thank You Outpost75 for that honest breakdown of Brinnell Hardness ratings as they apply to bullet casting. And I particularly like the simplified measuring system to determine alloy hardness !

My casting career isn't as long as my reloading career but I don't think handgun bullets need to be super hard. I'm with Glen Fryxell in the school of thought that a handgun bullet needs to be just hard enough to work in a particular application.

I believe we overthink this stuff sometimes.

[Shopdog]

+ whatever on post #10.

I don't even have a thermometer,and have been casting since the mid-late 1970's. Not holding that up as a badge or anything,just sayin... experience,and paying attention to little things is hard to beat. I can almost tell by looking at a CB how hard it is..... knowing a particular mould from years,decades of use.... looking at how sharp and crisp the edges are. Then pick it up,thumbnail test it,listen to it as you tap it on a solid piece of steel.

Not "selling" anything here..... buy all the equipment you need/want. Just sayin,the more time you spend,at the pot and at the bench.... it gets to be second nature. Good luck with your project.

[Jevyod]

id put 1lb of the lyman #2 and 9lb of the WW alloy in a pot, since having 3lb of #2 is kinda useless might aswell use it to add tin to the WW, and test the bullets for accuracy air cooled and if its good enough use that. which would give you ~ 3%sb 1%sn, could add more #2 for slight hardness and tin as needed, I wouldn't water drop or heat treat as they would be very hard and im not sure .275" is wide enough to work well as a hard meplat like it would in big bores

Why didn't I think of that?! It is a fairly tin rich alloy, so I believe I will add it to my wheelweights and sweeten it wit a touch of lino. Should get me to 13 bhn, which if I searched correctly should expand down to 1400 fps. I may also be able to scrounge a bit of solder to add to keep it malleable. I assume 2% tin content should do it?