How to change a hunting season

[megasupermagnum]

I have always thought the MN muzzle loader deer season was set up in such a weird way. I love that it starts just after thanksgiving, but I hate that it is only a 3 week season. To me it only makes sense to end it on December 31, the same ending as bow hunting deer. The short season is the only reason I do regular firearms at all.

What would be the best path to getting the season extended? The bowhunters have their own association, which has obviously worked well with their 3 1/2 month straight uninterrupted season. As far as I know there is not a hunting group to support muzzleloader hunters. I'm not sure who would be for or against such a change. Would bow hunters be against sharing the woods for an extra 2 weeks? Would the hardcore traditional muzzleloader hunters then be pushing against allowing scopes and inline rifles? I'd imagine the firearm hunters have little input, being as they think early November is already a cold season. The only reason I would think the MN DNR would be against it is for increased traditional hunting. No longer would I have to fork out the money for a deer tag twice.

[trails4u]

Find a friend with the State DNR and start the conversation. Most State dept's are relatively small, and it shouldn't be all that hard to find an ear, as many of the ground pounders probably feel the same way you do. In some states, mine included, the techs and wardens aren't far removed from the decision makers. Many states have moved on to a 'primitive' season, or set aside primitive areas, which are open to archery and traditional black powder arms. Your best bet might be to make it about truly 'traditional' firearms, which from reading your post, I believe to be your interest...

If you're in a State where regs are legislated, as opposed to rule-making by the dept., then your fight is a political fight, and that's a whole other discussion....

[NyFirefighter357]

Here we can hunt with a bow, crossbow firearm or ML during Regular Deer/bear season. It's the specific season like (Special) Bow hunting or (Special) ML season which only allows specific weapons be used.
BTW crossbows are treated as ML in NY.
The Minnesota Deer Hunters Association is the organization to contact https://www.mndeerhunters.com/what-we-do/advocacy/
as well as the DNR

[megasupermagnum]

In Minnesota, some is legislated, some is not. I would have to think season dates are set by the DNR, but I could be wrong. Calling them is pointless. In I don't know how many years, I have NEVER gotten an answer from the DNR, even from simple questions. I wouldn't even know who to talk to as a contact.

As for going to a traditional season, that's what worries me. Myself, I love traditional hunting. While I do not bow hunt, I do like shooting the recurve bow from time to time. As odd as it sounds, I used to be very good at blowgun, and at one time was good enough to shoot clays out of the air with regularity. I used to blowgun hunt for rabbits all the time, even animals as big as raccoon. I'm currently shooting a side lock TC renegade myself.

That said, I do not agree with putting restrictions on "traditional". A bow is a bow, and a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader. Banning sabot's and scopes is just as stupid as allowing cartridge guns in the muzzleloader season. The same is said for bow hunters. Banning sights and releases is not a good way to be. Crossbows is another issue altogether. Currently crossbows are not allowed during the bow season unless you are 60+ or disabled. If a guy wants to deck out a Remington 700, shooting a saboted bullet with blackhorn 209 powder, I'm all for it, as long as it is loaded from the muzzle. Same with a guy who want to go out with an old match lock 72 caliber he is free to do so.

I am 100% against what they did in some western states where they banned anything but a flintlock or a percussion cap, open sights only, and you can't shoot anything but a patched round ball or full bore conical. Dang hipsters are so ironic they banned plastic sabots, but allowed a patched round ball... which is a fabric sabot! Rifle scopes have been around as long as percussion caps have, even longer depending on what you consider the first usable model, so I don't see why they are always in the hot seat.

[megasupermagnum]

Here we can hunt with a bow, crossbow firearm or ML during Regular Deer/bear season. It's the specific season like (Special) Bow hunting or (Special) ML season which only allows specific weapons be used.
BTW crossbows are treated as ML in NY.
The Minnesota Deer Hunters Association is the organization to contact https://www.mndeerhunters.com/what-we-do/advocacy/
as well as the DNR

Thanks for the link, I'll give them a try.

Here in MN, we can use bow, muzzleloader, slug gun, handgun (even in rifle calibers), and rifles (only in northern 1/2 of the state), during regular firearms deer season. Shotguns with buckshot is not legal for deer, which is another thing I would really like changed, but that's a battle for another day. Regular firearms deer is a 2 week season in early November. The bow season goes from mid September to December 31st. Muzzleloader season starts the Saturday after thanksgiving, and goes for 3 weeks. I'm glad Bow hunters get the early season. They get a 1 1/2 months all to them selves. The regular firearms deer is where 90% of the "hunters" crawl out of the woodwork and shoot the first deer they see. I'm glad for this, as it gets everything done and over with in 2 weeks. Just lay low those two weeks and you never have to see those people till next year.

If there would be a way to combine crossbows, muzzleloader, and standard bows as a primitive 5ish week season, and NOT impose all kinds of extra stipulations on equipment, I would be all for it. Bonus points if we could tack on spearing.

[trails4u]

Again....I think it goes back to who's making the rules. If it's the DNR making the rules, then their reasoning behind the lengthy bow season is likely based on harvest rates. Fewer kills by bow on average equals more opportunity, because it impacts the population less. If it's the legislators......then who knows?? DNRs usually do a pretty good job of using science, harvest data, hunter interest, etc, to make decisions. I'm saddened to hear that yours does not seem to be responsive.

I live in the State with what I think might be the longest whitetail season in the country....so my opinions might be less relevant to some. But for here, we only get 10 days 'exclusive' to muzzleloading, which is overlapped by bowhunting, which is allowed throughout our 3.5 month deer season. Our rifle season is months long as well.....and our season limits are, by practical purposes, unlimited. So for me.....I would love to see a primitive season, or some primitive areas, where traditional only would be allowed. I know others from SC may add some clarification...but I've lived all over this country and never seen modern gun hunting opportunity like we have here.

BTW -- Not criticizing at all....just pointing out my apples to your oranges.

[megasupermagnum]

Again....I think it goes back to who's making the rules. If it's the DNR making the rules, then their reasoning behind the lengthy bow season is likely based on harvest rates. Fewer kills by bow on average equals more opportunity, because it impacts the population less. If it's the legislators......then who knows?? DNRs usually do a pretty good job of using science, harvest data, hunter interest, etc, to make decisions. I'm saddened to hear that yours does not seem to be responsive.

I live in the State with what I think might be the longest whitetail season in the country....so my opinions might be less relevant to some. But for here, we only get 10 days 'exclusive' to muzzleloading, which is overlapped by bowhunting, which is allowed throughout our 3.5 month deer season. Our rifle season is months long as well.....and our season limits are, by practical purposes, unlimited. So for me.....I would love to see a primitive season, or some primitive areas, where traditional only would be allowed. I know others from SC may add some clarification...but I've lived all over this country and never seen modern gun hunting opportunity like we have here.

BTW -- Not criticizing at all....just pointing out my apples to your oranges.

Other than your very long rifle season, we will be getting a 16 day muzzleloader season, which is similar. It's better than our 9 day regular firearms, but still not enough time unless you have a lot of vacation days from work. I can't believe the seasons are based on hunter success. We have so many deer here that if you were willing to shoot the first deer you saw, your season would last all of 30 minutes most years. That's an exaggeration of course, but if a hunter wants a deer, they get a deer.

You got me curious, and I looked up MN past hunter reports. Here's some interesting stuff. https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildli...rvest_2018.pdf

This goes back to 2003. Looking just at hunter % success, regular firearms has remained surprisingly consistent for all those years at about 32%, about 1/3rd of hunters. Bow hunters start off in the mid 20%, and taper off to 19-20%. Muzzleloaders started off with banner years, then in 2008 were just 13.4%, and only barely got up to the upper teens. They have not got over 20% since 2008.

This should make the argument to the DNR even easier.

[country gent]

A lot of states hold game department meetings / hearings thru out the year. At these you can voice your ideas opinions in the presence of those who determine the laws and seasons. In Ohio they are held in various areas and the capitol. You might have to make small trip of it to attend but it might be a good start

[richhodg66]

Seems like Kansas has been trying to screw up our muzzle loader season for a long time. I wish ours was three weeks long. All the seasons here favor bowhunters, which is OK, I guess. Kansas did not have a huntable population of white tails until the mid '60s and they guarded them jealously for a very long time, even now, there are times I think they are too restrictive here, but we have a lot of good deer, though not sure we're ahead of Minnesota.

[waksupi]

You already have three weeks of what should be prime rut and post-rut. Another week probably wouldn't matter.

Some years ago a group was pushing for a muzzleloading season here, inline shooters looking for a longer season. The traditional shooters came out in force against it and won. They wanted it during the elk rut, which would be pure murder on the bulls. Traditional hunters hunt the regular season, inline shooters can too. It's rare to see an inline in this area. I can't recall ever seeing one for sale in any of the local gun shops. We have enough territory to hunt that there isn't conflict. There are a few ML areas, due to population density. I helped write the Montana ML laws nearly 40 years ago.

[lefty o]

the reason for a long bow season is that it is markedly harder to kill an animal with a bow than a firearm(also why crossbows should not be tied in with archery season). 3 weeks for muzzle loader, how long do you need? of course i believe to qualify for muzzle loader season it should be primitive, ie no scopes, no sabots, no inlines, as imo with all those things you may as well be holding a modern rifle, because you really are. the lets add in how hard do we need to continually push these animals going into the hardest months of the year to survive just my thoughts and ramblings.

[megasupermagnum]

Peak rut here is usually from Halloween to mid November, depending on the year. The regular firearms season is designed to hit the peak of the rut. If you see a rutting buck in the muzzleloader season, it's the exception, not the norm.

Obviously almost any muzzleloader has a range advantage over a bow. Still, you don't need 3.5 months to kill a deer with a bow. 3 weeks is not enough to hunt big bucks, plain and simple. Like I said, unless you have all kinds of vacation, that's 6-8 days of actual hunting for the average guy.

For the longest time all I've done is hunt both the regular firearms and muzzleloader both. I hate hunting regular firearms, and if I didn't have private land, I wouldn't. Plus paying for the full price tag TWICE for only one deer sucks. Heck, even allowing a muzzleloader tag during regular firearms would be a huge improvement.

I fully realize at least half of the muzzleloader hunters are simply firearm hunters who didn't get a deer. I guess in a way I'm one of them.

[lefty o]

i can agree with you that your muzzle loader tag should be valid during firearms season, as long as you use a muzzle loader.

[megasupermagnum]

the reason for a long bow season is that it is markedly harder to kill an animal with a bow than a firearm(also why crossbows should not be tied in with archery season). 3 weeks for muzzle loader, how long do you need? of course i believe to qualify for muzzle loader season it should be primitive, ie no scopes, no sabots, no inlines, as imo with all those things you may as well be holding a modern rifle, because you really are. the lets add in how hard do we need to continually push these animals going into the hardest months of the year to survive just my thoughts and ramblings.

Here's the problem when you start picking and choosing what gear people use. Rifle scopes, I already covered, they are as traditional as percussion caps. Sabots, a round ball patch is a sabot! Who cares if it's made of plastic? A plastic sabot does not make a rifle more accurate. If anything it makes it harder to load, and less effective on game with a smaller bullet. The ONLY advantage of a plastic sabot, besides being able to shoot pistol bullets, is that you can shoot lighter bullets that recoil less at faster velocities. While I'm not aware of an inline ignition muzzleloader pre-1900, they are not automatically a huge advantage. It's the fast twist barrel shooting long bullets (compared to a PRB or stubby conical) that give the advantage. There is nothing but money stopping you from putting a 45 caliber fast twist barrel on a side lock, and putting the sabot inline shooters to shame. The only reason they are so popular is they are vastly cheaper to manufacture. That and they can shoot pellet powder, which is inferior to loose powder of any kind anyway.

[lefty o]

Here's the problem when you start picking and choosing what gear people use. Rifle scopes, I already covered, they are as traditional as percussion caps. Sabots, a round ball patch is a sabot! Who cares if it's made of plastic? A plastic sabot does not make a rifle more accurate. If anything it makes it harder to load, and less effective on game with a smaller bullet. The ONLY advantage of a plastic sabot, besides being able to shoot pistol bullets, is that you can shoot lighter bullets that recoil less at faster velocities. While I'm not aware of an inline ignition muzzleloader pre-1900, they are not automatically a huge advantage. It's the fast twist barrel shooting long bullets (compared to a PRB or stubby conical) that give the advantage. There is nothing but money stopping you from putting a 45 caliber fast twist barrel on a side lock, and putting the sabot inline shooters to shame. The only reason they are so popular is they are vastly cheaper to manufacture. That and they can shoot pellet powder, which is inferior to loose powder of any kind anyway.

sounds like there is no disadavantage to a primitive muzzle loader, why need a separate season? now dont take that to seriously, im just poking fun. basic facts are not too many of us will agree on exactly what does or should constitute a primitive, or a muzzle loader season. ive spent a lifetime bow and rifle hunting both mn, and wis, and honestly the biggest issue i have with more and longer seasons is that the deer need a chance to rest.

[megasupermagnum]

It's a fair question, and for me, there is no disadvantage. I've never had a rifled slug gun out shoot a rifled muzzleloader. Even the craziest claims of slug gun accuracy are about 1.5 MOA, and I've yet to see anyone repeat it in person, 4 MOA is about average. 1.5 MOA is quite doable with many muzzleloaders. The answer to your question is that 2 weeks is not enough to actually hunt deer. It's enough to shoot A deer, which is all 95% of firearms hunters are after.

[megasupermagnum]

To many the disadvantage of a muzzleloader is only getting one shot. Anyone who has spent any real time with a muzzleloader knows this is a minor problem. What I like about muzzleloader is the basic nature of it. You touch every component, every shot, same as bow. Learing how to keep them 100% reliable and accurate is the challenge. When it comes time to pull the trigger, and you've done your part, there isn't a disadvantage over a slug gun. If you are just a knucklehead who rammed a bullet down half a dozen times at the range and then decided to go hunting with no farther thought... who knows where that shot might go, if it goes off at all.

As for hunting pressure, muzzleloader tag sales are approximately half of bow hunters. Whether you like it or not, there are going to bow hunters out there. All I'm after is to level the field to the traditional firearm (muzzleloader) hunters.

[lefty o]

To many the disadvantage of a muzzleloader is only getting one shot. Anyone who has spent any real time with a muzzleloader knows this is a minor problem. What I like about muzzleloader is the basic nature of it. You touch every component, every shot, same as bow. Learing how to keep them 100% reliable and accurate is the challenge. When it comes time to pull the trigger, and you've done your part, there isn't a disadvantage over a slug gun. If you are just a knucklehead who rammed a bullet down half a dozen times at the range and then decided to go hunting with no farther thought... who knows where that shot might go, if it goes off at all.

As for hunting pressure, muzzleloader tag sales are approximately half of bow hunters. Whether you like it or not, there are going to bow hunters out there. All I'm after is to level the field to the traditional firearm (muzzleloader) hunters.

hit up the DNR. only way to initiate change is to bring it to the table, see what they say. i neither agree with you totally, nor do i entirely disagree with you, but if you can find enough others out there that think the same way, its possible to influence the decision makers at the DNR.

[trails4u]

i can agree with you that your muzzle loader tag should be valid during firearms season, as long as you use a muzzle loader.

I couldn't agree with this more. Crazy that you've already bought a tag, didn't fill it, and now have to buy another one to hunt with a more modern weapon???????? THIS should be changed!!