Any Webley Shooters Here?

[DonH]

If you shoot a .455 Mk VI what is your bullet diameter?
I have fired my Mk VI some, mostly with my .45 ACP H&G 68 target loads and a few light loads with a SWC intended for .45 Colt. I thought accuracy was acceptable for an old warhorse. But I have longer for a mold for the proper .455 RN bullet.
Last week I decided to load some rounds for the beast, starting from scratch. First, to determine cylinder throat diameter for proper bullet fit. Dropped a .454" bullet into the chamber expecting it to fall right into the throat. No go! So, tried again with a .452" #68 but still no go. So I ran the .452" bullet through a .451" die. This time a snug fit in the throat. So this is the bullet size no matter what barrel groove dia is.
Is this typical for the Mk VI? If so where did the .455 come from?

[cwtebay]

I got bullet shaving with the fiocci ammunition that I purchased when I ran out of old milsurp brass so started messing with bullet diameter a bit also. My Colt new service likes 0.452, the Webley 0.453. but I've been happy with 0.452 with both. I had a "manstopper" mould made from a few bullets I acquired from a cartridge collector, they're hollow based and hollow point, so the base expands upon firing. Great cartridge!
Cheers.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

Great info on shooting the Webley from CBA The Fouling Shot, cross-posted here by permission:

Modern Cast Bullet Fodder Safely Feeds Old Brit War Horses Part 1

Proper bullets and brass with prudent load development enable old .455 revolvers to soldier on…

“The revolver is… a weapon for quick use at close quarters… looked upon more as a defensive weapon than an arm of precision…for delivering a knock-down blow within the limits of its normal short fighting range… used instinctively… aligned and discharged as a shotgun is used on moving game, rather than being consciously sighted…”
- [British] Textbook of Small Arms, 1929

The first self-extracting revolver issued by the British Army was the Enfield .442 rim fire, issued later in .450 centerfire. The Enfield proved unreliable in combat, due to its delicate mechanism and under-powered cartridge, attaining only 500 fps with its 225-grain hollow-based bullet. When the .450 was withdrawn it was replaced by the Webley Mk I, a 4-inch barreled “pistol,” firing the .450/476 cartridge, in August 1890. The Webley was produced in successive “Marks” I through VI. Of these only the Mark IV (Boer War Model) and later Mark V and Mark VI revolvers are suitable for safe use with Cordite or smokeless loadings. The earlier Marks I through III should be limited to black powder only.

Attachment 248889

The Small Arm .455 Mk VI cartridge, introduced in 1939, was used during WW2 and is the variant most commonly found. It featured a 265-grain FMJ, hollow-based Hague-compliant bullet propelled either by 5.5–7.5 grains of chopped cordite, or alternately 5.5-6.0 grains of flake nitrocellulose, the powder charge being determined at the time of loading to produce 625 +/-25 fps. Cordite-loaded cartridges bore a "VI" in the head stamp, whereas nitrocellulose-loaded cartridges were marked "VIz". Although obsolescent by the end of WW2, the Mark VI cartridge continued to be made into the late 1960s by Kynoch to fill export contracts for Pakistan, Kenya and other export customers. Later production was produced with small size Berdan primers. Remington and Winchester produced .455s in both Mk1 (.88") and Mk2 (.76") case lengths prior to WW2. CIL in Canada loaded .455 Colts (.88" case) into the 1970s. Hornady produced a limited run of Mk2 ammo in 2008. Fiocchi is the only current producer of .455 MkII cartridges, other than custom loaders.

Cautions for Feeding “Shaved” Webleys Converted to .45 ACP!

The .455 Webley has a maximum operating pressure (sample average) of 12,700 psi, whereas .45 ACP may run up to 19,900 psi. This means that when firing your imported surplus Webley, commonly modified to fire .45 ACP for the US market, every time you pull the trigger, you're re-proofing the gun!

Marks I through III of earlier Webley service revolvers were proofed only for black powder and it is not unknown for .45 ACP conversions of these older revolvers to fail dramatically.

Attachment 248887Attachment 248891Attachment 248907

While many converted Mk IV and later .455 Webley revolvers have survived repeated firing of .45 ACP ammunition, such treatment is equivalent to an accelerated endurance test, by feeding the revolver a steady diet of "proof loads." Such abuse is testimony to the sturdiness of these revolvers, because firing full-charge .45 ACP service loads in top-break revolvers cannot ever be considered safe.

Cylinder throats of all original Webley revolvers I have measured were tighter than barrel groove diameter, typically .449-.451." Colts and S&Ws, however, usually have very large cylinder throats of .456-.459” with barrel groove diameters being .455-.457”. Forcing oversized bullets into tight cylinder throats increases chamber pressure dangerously, PARTICULARLY when bullets are full metal jacketed or cast hard!

Safe results require SOFT lead bullets not exceeding 10 BHN, sized to fit the cylinder throats. Bullet weights from 230-270 grains are recommended to shoot to point of aim with fixed sights. I recommend that ammunition destined for “shaved” .45 ACP revolvers be assembled into .45 Auto-Rim cases for positive identification. Loads developed in stronger Colt and S&W .455 revolvers using larger bullet diameters which produce velocities over 700 fps should NOT be fired in any Webley revolvers!

Limit revolver velocity of 265-270-grain bullets to 600 fps and 230-grain ones to 700 fps by using 3.0-3.5 grains of Bullseye or 4.5-5.0 grains of Unique. You can determine safe charges with other powders in “shaved” .45 ACP Webleys or unaltered .455 revolvers using the 0.88” length .455 Colt cases by adhering to the “start” load charges listed for .45 ACP using #452374 in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010) on p.278, which do not exceed 13,000 cup. Reduce these charges by 10% either for heavier bullets or for use in shorter 0.76” Mk II cases, unless you are able to measure velocity of your revolver over a chronograph. Careful charge adjustment may be cautiously used to obtain uniform ballistics within the stated limits to compensate for a very large cylinder gap over 0.010”, which is common in these revolvers. While you must be careful when reloading for any 100-year-old revolver, the Webley is a utilitarian piece of history which can be enjoyed with appropriate ammunition.

Attachment 248890

I had a Webley Mark IV Boer War period cylinder and frame Rockwell tested during the course of repair. The cylinder did not register at all on the "C" scale, being 85-87 Rockwell B, typical of plain carbon steel similar to 1035 quenched and tempered. The frame was Rb90, its "black powder" metallurgy being remarkably similar to Colt Single Actions produced in the same pre-1900 era.

Be aware that the chamber throats of Webley service revolvers are highly variable. I encountered a .004” range of diameters among the various chambers of my 1914-era Mk VI. Several chambers were indeed smaller than barrel groove diameter. With soft hollow-based lead bullets using black powder, this allows the bullet to swage down passing through the chamber throat, getting the most energy from a small powder charge, and the hollow base then expands up again as the bullet passes through the barrel forcing cone to engage the rifling. But, I repeat my warning that firing hard-cast or jacketed bullets larger than cylinder throat diameter, such as the M1911 .45 ACP service bullet, combined with fast-burning powders such as Bullseye, can spike chamber pressure dangerously and should be avoided!


Webley Gunsmithing Adventures!

I once owned a former Queensland Police Mk IV with bird's head grip and 4" barrel, converted to .45 ACP. I fired about 500 rounds of 230-grain Saeco #954 cowboy bullets, as-cast of wheel weight metal, .455" diameter in Winchester .45 ACP cases and WLP primers with 5 grains of Bullseye. This is a standard-pressure, but full-charge .45 ACP load producing about 830 fps in an M1911 pistol, 800 fps in my 5-1/2" S&W Hand Ejector and 750 fps in the 4" Mk IV, a Boer War period piece with large, 0.012" cylinder gap. While running the falling plates firing in rapid DA, the barrel catch popped open. This occurred during a match, so I closed the revolver and fired one more shot and the gun popped open again.

Upon further inspection it was determined that the barrel catch screw had sheared off! Disassembling the gun, it was apparent that the barrel catch had spread open slightly so that the snapped off barrel catch screw could be removed by hand, leaving the broken, threaded stub in the frame. The hole in the frame for the barrel catch screw was slightly elongated as a consequence of the failure.

Sandy Garrett of Northern VA Gun Works tore down and inspected the revolver. He admonished me for my “accelerated endurance test " firing the equivalent of proof loads, reminding me that I was no longer “being paid to destroy guns for a living,” and that I, of all people, should know better! Because the shaved revolver gun had no collector value, Sandy made a replacement barrel catch screw of larger diameter than the original, using a heat treated 18-8 high-carbon steel M4 metric bolt, reaming the hole in the frame on the milling machine to repair the slight elongation produced during the failure. He also polished the barrel forcing cone, uniformed the .448-.450" cylinder throats to .4525 with a Manson reamer and made minor lock work adjustments. I spent as much on repairs as I did originally for the gun, but it now excels in rapid DA work and is "married" to mild loads with the 230-grain Saeco #954 using 3.5 grains of Bullseye, for 630 fps. With luck, and avoiding similar future stupidity, it should last another 120 years.

After it was repaired, I swapped the Mark IV to a Aussie expat now living in the US who deeply appreciated its Queensland history and understood its loading considerations. In exchange I received his 1914 original date of manufacture Mark VI and full kit, being arsenal rebuilt for WW2 service in 1940.

Attachment 248888

I used the Mk VI as the test platform for this article to fire charge establishment, working up .455 loads in Hornady and Fiocchi Mk II and in Mk I brass obtained from Reed’s Ammunition and Research to approximate WW2 service load velocities. My Mk VI Webley revolver has also proven to be a satisfying gunsmith’s adventure. While function and accuracy were very good for its type, it was plagued by occasional fliers and leading of its original too-tight cylinder throats. I sent the cylinder off to DougGuy to have the throats uniformed. Thorough cleaning and close examination revealed residual circumferential tool marks from its original manufacture, as well as deep pitting which had hidden for years under accumulated lead and encrusted carbon fouling. DougGuy initially trued the throats to .4525” with an NM95 Borazon stone in the Sunnen hone to remove tight spots and enable close inspection, proceeding to clean up the worst damage in 0.001 increments, photographing the progress in stages. He explained:

“Uneven throats cause differences in pressure which make the gun recoil differently in the hands from shot to shot, and groups open accordingly… It is more important that throats are even than what size they are. You can always size bullets to fit the throats. Pitting makes the throat diameter larger, which will both vent off pressure before the bullet leaves the cylinder, and it will lead the cylinder any place where gas escapes… Honed to .4555" with the 500grit borazon stone, the throats…show a HUGE improvement… I can see a seal down low in the worst throats, and I stopped here because I do not want to polish out the pitting to the point where it is too shallow to hold lube, powder residue…better to leave it where the residue from firing will have a good chance at sealing…
Attachment 248892
Webley cylinder trued to .4525" throats required removal of 0.003" more to mostly clean up the old pits.

“Here are the .4555" throats, and chambers, all polished up with an 800grit ball hone. A .4555” pin gage goes smoothly and evenly in all the throats, a .456" won't go in any of them. I am quite satisfied with this endeavor, and for sure want to know how well it shoots… At the very worst, if you have 2 chambers that are not shooting to the same point of impact as the others, two things can happen. You could mark them with empty 45 ACP brass that would remain in the chambers, or you could send the cylinder back and see what taking the throats to .4565" does for it. My thoughts for the best scenario are that you fire the gun enough times to fill in the remaining pits, and determine that it shoots pretty good and just roll with it… You should see a tremendous improvement right away. For once, the caliber REALLY IS what the bullets are, and you now truly have a 455 Webley!”

Attachment 248893Attachment 248894
Group size was cut approximately in half after uniforming throats to .4555" and using bullets cast 1:30 tin-lead from Accurate mold that FIT!

Ammunition Loading Specifics Continued in Part 2 next post

[Outpost75]

Loading the .455 - Continued Part 2

Soft Bullets and Mild Loads Are Best for Old Revolvers

The .455 bullets are best when soft. I use a mixture of 50/50 plumber’s lead and backstop scrap with 2% tin added, approximating 30:1, about 9 BHN. Harder alloy is not needed, because velocities should not appreciably exceed 700 fps with 230-grain bullets or 600 fps with 265-270-grain ones.

Fiocchi brass uses small pistol primers while Hornady uses large pistol primers.

Current production Starline .455 Mk2 cases use large primers.

In my first test I established a performance baseline firing 1942 British service ammo by Kynoch. These produced 567 fps in the Webley, 580 fps in the 7-1/2" Kirst-Ruger .45 ACP and 680 fps from my .45ACP/.455 H&R Rook and Rabbit Rifle by John Taylor with 20-inch barrel. Despite a few hang-fires and two misfires with the WW2 ammo, accuracy was acceptable and in all rounds which fired, bullets exited the barrels without mishap.

Attachment 248923

Next was to test Unique powder hand loads with 4.5 grains of Unique in Hornady brass with the MiHec 265-grain MKI hollow-based bullet. These gave 538 fps in the Webley, 679 fps in the Kirst-Ruger and 788 fps in the H&R carbine, being a very good approximation of the original lead bullet service ammo.

Attachment 248924

The Mk VI revolver came with several hundred rounds loaded with #452374 and 5 grains of Unique in the Hornady cases. Being cautious, I felt this starting .45 ACP load might be a bit “warm” in the Webley. So, I shot them first in the Ruger Old Army with .45 ACP Kirst cartridge conversion and in the H&R American Rook Rifle.

Attachment 248925Attachment 248926

The Lyman cast hardball-shaped bullet shot to the sights of all three guns, and represents a good “full charge” in Mk II brass load for the Webley. Velocities recorded were 648 fps in the Mk VI (a maximum load not to be exceeded, considering its 0.018” cylinder gap), 716 fps in the Ruger and 814 fps in the 20” H&R.

Velocities measured with 1942 Kynoch FMJ ammunition and cast bullet hand loads using Unique powder agreed with published references as to what they “should” be, considering cylinder gap. The velocity gain in firing Kynoch MkVIz in the Ruger was less than that experienced shooting lubricated lead bullet loads of similar energy. Pooling all five load samples fired in the Webley, their combined average velocity was 578 fps. This reinforces the well-established advice from our experienced Canadian neighbors that when working up loads for these revolvers, you should not appreciably exceed 700 fps with 230-grain bullets and not exceed 600 fps with heavier 250-270 grain ones. I agree completely.

Pooling the samples in the Ruger, its average velocity was 667 fps, or 89 fps faster than the Webley. This validates the advice that in working up .455 loads in your S&W .455 Hand Ejector or Colt New Service the 700 fps published velocity for the .455 Colt/Eley is still a good benchmark. BUT, if your sturdy Colt or S&W .455 likes a load exceeding 700 fps, you should NOT use that load in your Webley.

Proper bullet “fit” is essential for safety as well as accuracy. It is common to encounter .455 Webleys having “tight” cylinder throats as small as .450”, whereas Colts and S&Ws often run .457-.459” Those inclined to hand load based only upon what they read, without MEASAURING their revolver, may assemble ammunition with hard, oversized bullets which dangerously spike pressure. Original design soft, hollow-based bullets like the Mk II tolerate being squeezed through tight throats and will slug up again to take the rifling of a larger barrel.

But doing so today is NOT the best technical solution. I recommend that cylinders be measured with gage pins and honed, when necessary, to 0.001” to 0.0015” larger than barrel groove diameter. A modern mold of design optimized for the Webley cartridge should be selected, which produces correct bullets that “fit” when cast in soft 8-10 BHN alloy.

Reaming cylinder throats and having new Accurate molds cut to fit made a BIG difference in revolver accuracy. A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye loaded with soft bullets cast from with Accurate molds 45-240H1, 45-262H and 45-264D all provide a useful approximation of original service velocity, with superior accuracy. While the Mk VI is not a target revolver, it easily meets or exceeds the traditional British service revolver accuracy criteria of One Inch Per Ten [yards], which defines practical handgun accuracy.

Table 1 - .455 Velocity Test Data
__________________________Vel. (fps), Sd ____Kirst Ctg. Conversion___”Rook Rifle”
__________________________Webley 6” Bbl.___Ruger ROA 7-1/2”______H&R 20”
__________________________Cyl.gap 0.018”___Cyl. gap 0.004”________Solid Bbl.
Kynoch K42 Mk VIz 265-gr. FMJ_537 fps, 29 Sd___580 fps, 32 Sd________680 fps, 40 Sd

Handloads Assembled in Hornady .455 Mk II cases (0.77”) with Winchester LP primers

#452374 225-gr. LRN 5.0 Unique____648 fps, 24 Sd___716 fps, 11 Sd___814 fps, 14 Sd
MiHec 265-gr. Mk I 4.5 Unique______538 fps, 24 Sd___679 fps, 32 Sd___788 fps, 11 Sd
Accurate 45-259H 3.5 Bullseye______622 fps, 6 Sd____720 fps. 16 Sd___813 fps, 18 Sd

Handload Starline .45 Schofield Case mod. to .455 Mk I (0.88”) by Reed’s Custom Ammo

Accurate 45-259H 3.5 Bullseye______546 fps, 16 Sd___641 fps, 9 Sd____753 fps, 11 Sd
Column Means By Gun__________Webley 0.018” gap__Ruger 0.004” gap_20-inch rifle
Pooled Avg. All Samples:___________578 fps________667 fps_________770 fps
Velocity Gain from Webley__________0____________+89 fps_________+192 fps

Table -2 .455 Pressure Test Data - Submitted by Larry Gibson, Lake Havasu, AZ

Test Firearm – T/C Contender .45 Colt 10” with strain gage interface to Oehler M43 Ballistic Test System. All test loads assembled in Starline .45 Schofield brass shortened to 0.88” length and rims turned, Winchester LP primer, weighed charges of 3.5 grains Alliant Bullseye throughout.

Accurate 45-240H (252 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.29” – 639 fps, 11,400 psi max.*
• Only one shot recorded a high enough pressure to measure on the strain gage

Accurate 45-262H (269 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.30” – 648 fps, 14 Sd, ES 42, 11,800 psi, ES 900 psi

Accurate 45-290H (295 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.298” – 672 fps, 11 Sd, 32 ES, 12,600 psi, ES 1100 psi

Expected vel. drop in 6” barrel revolver est.-100 to 150 fps, depending upon cylinder gap.

Attachment 248899Attachment 248900Attachment 248901 Attachment 248902

Accurate 45-240H1 recommended for "shaved" Webley's, S&W and Colt M1917s using .45 Auto Rim to maintain correct point of impact relative to the fixed sights.

Accurate 45-262H approximates the correct payload and velocity of MkVI service ammunition to shoot to the fixed sights of most .455 revolvers, but has a large meplat for better field performance.

Accurate 45-264D recommended for use with the shorter (0.76") Starline Mk2 cases to minimize seating depth. Its full-diameter front driving band reduces bullet jump in the longer military and Eley chambers. An excellent choice for the Colt New Service and S&W Hand Ejector .455 Eley revolvers.

Attachment 248903
Loads developing over 700 fps with 260+grain bullets are NOT to be used in top break Webleys!

Accurate 45-290H should be used ONLY in the longer (0.88") .455 Eley cases, due to its increased bullet weight and seating depth, which precludes assembling a safe load for top-break revolvers in the shorter (0.76") Mk2 cases. The 45-290H may be safely loaded in Starline Mk2 cases ONLY for use in the stronger, solid-frame Colt New Service and S&W Hand Ejectors using 3.5 grains of Bullseye, WST or 452AA.

[EMC45]

Great results!

[DonH]

Great article!

My Mk VI is a 1917 and is "shaved". I picked it at a gun show for $50 because someone had left a ring in the barrel. I "bet" 50 bucks it would still shoot acceptable groups. Firing it one-handed at 50 ft I got groups 3"-5" for 5 shots. The load was my 200 be swc over 3.7 be Bullseye match load. I would NOT use standard .45 ACP in the Webley.
Have to think on reaming the throats.

[Dutchman]

from The Webley Story by Dowd

[Outpost75]

Can ctg. collectors here tell me what the differences are, if any, between the Mark I "Horse Killer," the .320 Sherwood rook rifle and the .310 Cadet Greener cartridge used in the small action Martinis?

[cas]

I shot mine for years with the tiny throats and just .452" SWC's , it shot well enough for what I was using it for.

Last year I finally reamed the throats (kinda funny that, owning a drawer full of 45 throat reamers for over a decade) to .452"
Last winter I bought one of the MP man stopper molds. And here we are 11+ months later... and I still haven't cast any.

[DonH]

I find it interesting that just prior to WWI the .455 was loaded with a "wadcutter" bullet but during the War used the earlier RN bullet. Must have been deemed more humane. Like when you need to kill an enemy before he kills you coins so humanely matters!

[Outpost75]

I find it interesting that just prior to WWI the .455 was loaded with a "wadcutter" bullet but during the War used the earlier RN bullet. Must have been deemed more humane. Like when you need to kill an enemy before he kills you coins so humanely matters!

Six types of .455 service ammunition were produced:

The .455 Webley Mk I had a case length of 0.88” and was introduced in 1891. It was loaded with a 265 grain lead, hollow-based, round-nosed bullet of 1:12 tin/lead, and 18 grains of black powder, lubricated with beeswax. A few experimental Mk I cordite cartridges were produced before the Mk II. The longer Mk I case was used for sporting, Boxer-primed, smokeless loads by CIL until the early 1970s.

Starting with the Mk ll, introduced in 1897, subsequent .455 British service cartridges were loaded in the 0.76” case to reduce excessive airspace to improve ballistic uniformity with smokeless powder. The Mk II 265 grain lead, round-nosed, hollow-based bullet resembled the nose shape of the Mk I, but with a shallower hollow base, reducing the bullet’s overall length to improve gyroscopic stability, with larger lubricating grooves. Its 6.5 grains of Mk I chopped Cordite produced 600 fps from a 6-inch barrel.

The Mk III cartridge, introduced in 1898, was the famous "Manstopper" bullet intended for police, civilian defense, and colonial use. It was a double-ended, 218-grain design, swaged of 1:12 tin/lead, having hemispherical cavities at each end—one to seal the barrel, the other to deform upon impact. It was loaded with 6.5 grains of chopped Cordite for 600 fps. Because it was not compliant with the Hague Convention of 1899, the Mk III was withdrawn in 1900 and the Mk II cartridge was reintroduced.

The Webley Mk IV, introduced in 1912, featured a solid, 220 grain, flat-nosed, hollow-based wadcutter, loaded with cordite propellant, producing 600 fps, its design objective intending to be more effective than the round-nosed Mark II, but without violating the terms of the Hague Convention.

The Mk V, introduced in 1914, was identical to the Mk IV, but formed from antimonial-lead-alloy recovered from salvaged storage battery plates, as a manufacturing expedient, to conserve tin as a critical wartime material. It was in use only from April through November 1914. Harder antimonial-lead bullets proved less than completely satisfactory, due to barrel leading. The Mk V was almost immediately withdrawn and the Mark II returned to service. Remaining Mk V cartridges were used up for training and target practice and remaining in-process Mk V marked cases were assembled with Mk II bullets.

The Mk VI cartridge, introduced in 1939, is the variant most commonly found, used during WW2. It has a 265-grain FMJ, hollow-based Hague-compliant bullet propelled either by 5.5–7.5 grains of chopped cordite, or alternately 5.5-6.0 grains of flake nitrocellulose, the powder charge being determined at the time of loading to produce 625 +/-25 fps. Cordite-loaded cartridges bore a "VI" in the head stamp, whereas nitrocellulose-loaded cartridges were marked "VIz".

[darne]

The throats on my Colt New Service Target measured .448. I slugged it with .490 round balls, so not as precise as pin gauges. It had been rechambered to 45 Colt prior to me acquiring it. I really wish they hadn't done that. It destroyed a considerable amount of value of the revolver and more importantly made it much more difficult to get a load that would shoot. It was maufactured in 1906, has Metford rifling and requires a hollow base bullet. Cowboy 45 colt ammo with the Remington .455 hollow base bullets shot ok, about a three inch group at 25 yards. Sadly, Remington's current bullet does not have the deep hollow base it used to.
I reamed the throats to .455. The RCBS Hollow base Webley bullet is too long for the 45 Colt case. The RCBS 250gr Hollow base bullet sized .456 shoots about as well as the cowboy ammo, I got a two cavity Accurate 255ON and had Erik at hollowpointmold make hollow base pins for it. It casts beautiful bullets, but I haven't shot any yet.

Hope this helps,

Dan