Formula for reduced loads

[sv44]

gonna throw this out for discussion- i am not an expert (beginner in reality).

I am frustrated by the lack of published data for loading full wadcutters for 44s and 45 colt (i'll include 41 magnum in this). I am interested in everyone's thoughts as to what i should do to get this data.

I know, from reading a lot of the internet discussions, that the change in seating depth for a full wadcutter makes a safe load potentially unsafe or even deadly. With this in mind, if i subtract the full wadcutter load COL from the published data COL i would get a factor to reduce the published load by. Subtracting this factor from the published load would give me a load that might be considered in range.
first, does this make sense to you guys with experience?
second, what other factors am i not taking into account? for example, if the load is fast burning vs moderate does that change how i should be thinking of this?

Interested in the opinions of you guys who have been at this far longer than me
Thanks in advance.

[Conditor22]

As you know, full wadcutters seat deeper in the case. What makes some loads for that same boolit weight unsafe for the wadcutters is with slower powders that fill up the case more you will get compressed loads.

I use faster powders that require less powder to avoid this.

you measure the depth the wadcutter seats and the height of the powder in the case to see if it will compress or not.

not to confuse you but some powders work OK with compressed loads but I like to keep things simple

[sv44]

thank you for that. it is interesting that when i used this formula against some loads i have found it seems to be very close so hopefully on the right track here

[Conditor22]

Watch the primmer, if the primmer flattens out excessively go with a lighter charge.
As with all loads, start small and work up.

[sv44]

will do, thanks. also mindful of how easy the spent cartridge is to extract.

[Walks]

For the Saeco #453 - 452 225gr WC, I start with the starting load listed for the Lyman #452374 in the old Lyman #2 Cast Bullet Handbook.
Usually Bullseye or Unique. Since I'm using them in a Revolver I don't have to worry about feeding in an Auto Loader.

And the Lee #429-208-WC is shot only in .44Spl and I just use the starting loads from the Hodgdon Jan 2003
Cowboy Action Reloading Handout.

Starting loads are just easier to start with. No Pun intended. No worry about pressure that way.

[Old School Big Bore]

When we did the group buy of the M-P HBWCs, I got one each in .311, .358, .411 and .432. At that time I did not have any .45 revolvers but have since added a model 25-8 JM and a 25-5, so I bought the .452 HBWC for them. I had already used several different wadcutters in .38/357 and .44Spl/Mag, including the Lee 120 and 208 .44 button nose WCs, and just used the classic charges once I obtained the M-P boolits. The .311s are for 'mock .32 S&WL' loads in .30 Blackhawks, and since I found a Smith 1905 in .32-20, for it as well; the .41 is for two friends who shoot their M57s in our local LE matches in the Big Bore revo side matches, which is where I use the match-prepped M29.
The whole idea of using the WCs in the big-bores is to reduce recoil. Our match format does not require us to shoot at a super fast tempo; the fastest stage is two shots from the leather at five yards in three seconds. This is plenty of time to put them in the 'X'. The other stages are twelve rounds at seven yards in twenty-five seconds, twelve at fifteen yards in thirty-five seconds, and eighteen at twenty-five yards in ninety seconds. The reason we want to cut recoil is that by the time we get to the 25, we're pretty fatigued from holding and squeezing and following-through, and the less recoil we have to deal with, the better we do shooting at the little scoring rings on the B27 from there with no barricade.
I personally use 4.4/W231 in the .44, in Magnum cases and with the M-P seated to the front grease groove so that it's piloted in the throat, and a light crimp in that empty groove. The .41s are made the same way with 4.2/W231, the .357s for my match M686 with 3.2/W231 again in Magnum cases, and the .30 Carbine revolver loads with 3.0/W231 also seated to the front groove and of course no crimp. I haven't loaded these in .32-20 yet but when I put some through a .312 sizer they will be over 3.0/W231. The .45 Auto Rim gets 4.5/W231 and the .45 LC Mountain Gun gets 4.8/W231.
The M25 Miculek was bought to carry and to replace the M686 in the regular revolver match and the M29 in the big-bore match, but I have not used it nor the Mountain Gun in our matches yet, as I have missed two seasons due to a shoulder injury. I did get to carry the Miculek briefly prior to the injury and like the way that two full-moons full of Gold Dot fit into each conventional speedloader pouch.
Good luck with the WC loadings, and update us on how they shoot.

[sv44]

thanks to all for the words of wisdom. currently swaging soft lead and powder coating them- literally wadcutters (flying trash cans). i think they look pretty cool. using unique and reddot (loads i got from mr Taffin in american hand gunner). happy with them to date but just got to thinking how i can get some other options in the mix (and, if i get to a 41 magnum, what would that look like).
again, appreciate all your experience and advice

[gwpercle]

When working with reduced , light and target loads , and I do , the thing to watch carefully for is that a bullet doesn't stick in the barrel . The next shot is the one that does the damage .
Keep a close eye on the number of holes in the target and look down the barrel if something doesn't sound or feel right .

I bought a 41 magnum Wadcutter mould from NOE , 413-215-WC (413432), with the intention of loading some "target " loads . The data for 41 Special loads will be used as a go by .
Light 41 magnum loads with WC's are not the easiest to find .
Cowboy Action data is another place to look for 45 Colt , 44 special and magnum loads .
Gary

[dbosman]

I had the Lee .44 wad cutter mold and just seated the bullets out and used data for the same weight. It actually never occurred to me to seat them flush. Duh!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

41 Mag.
I bought a custom 195gr 41cal BNWC 3 cavity brass mold from Accurate.
I use Red Dot, since I have a lot on hand. I found data in "Nick Harvey reloading manual"
I found I like 6.5 gr

[JM7.7x58]

This is not load advice. Just my way of looking at the world.

I have loaded some hotter .38 special/38-44 WC loads. I have compared 9mm loads with similiar boolit weights to flush seated .38 special wadcutter loads. The OAL and internal volumes are often very similar. I also look very closely at the pressures of each round.

If it was me and I couldn't find any data at all for deep seated wadcutters I would compare 45 Colt to 45ACP in the same way.

My 3rd edition Lyman Cast Handbook says that the starting load of 5.5gr Unique, under a 225gr boolit, in 45ACP, has an OAL of 1.272", a speed of 695 FPS, and has a pressure of 10,100 cup.

A 251gr NOE wadcutter seated deep in a 45 Colt case has a OAL of 1.375". The 45 Colt's max pressure (for all guns, old and new) is 14,000 psi.

I suspect that the internal volume of these two is similar, the 45 Colt being slightly larger in volume. I would start there.

JM

[lar45]

Quickload, https://www.neconos.com/ , is a wonderful tool for playing what if. What if I seated this bullet deeper, what would the pressure change be? The answers are there at just the click of a button. Quickload is not a substitute for a loading manual, but if there isn't any load data for what you want to do, then it will get you close. Your next best reloading friend is a chronograph. Velocity doesn't come for free, you either have to burn more powder, or raise the pressure. So if your velocities are similar to what Quickload has predicted, then you can assume that the pressure should be similar also. But if your velocity is higher than predicted, then the pressure will probably be higher also.
Quickload is a little pricey at $152.95, but it is such a wonderful tool. I bought my copy many years ago when it came on a floppy disc, so I have only had to pay for the upgrade version to stay current.
If you reload alot, or like to stray from the beaten path, then it is money well spent. You can select any cartridge, bullet and powder combination and see what would happen.
They will even let you download a demo copy to play with for free. I think that it only has the 300 win mag in it, but it will give you an idea of what to expect.
https://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

Now with all of that out of the way, if you have any specific bullets that you want to seat flush, I'd be more than happy to plug the numbers into Quickload to give you an idea of where to start.
What I will need is the bullet length, the seated length, powders you are interested in and the barrel length of your firearm.
Glenn.

[georgerkahn]

Several months ago I was gifted a bag of .45 Colt wadcutters. I, too, was faced with the challenge of a load. After several different powders tried, as well as using .45 S&W Schofield cases (for still less volume in the faster (e.g. Bullseye) powders I experimented with), I ended up with a load which works quite nicely -- matter of fact I LOVE it! -- in my Ruger New Vaquero in .45 Colt, using .45 Colt cases.
When I get a "working" load, I type data on a 3"x 5" card which is added, Roll-a-deck fashion, on my loading bench. Data (chrony, accuracy, etc.) is hand written on card's back.
Here printed is MY card for this caliber. Works for me .
geo

[Froogal]

will do, thanks. also mindful of how easy the spent cartridge is to extract.

That is a good indicator no matter what bullet or powder you are using.

[sv44]

thank you for that kind offer. i am looking it up right now. I'll let you know what i find

[sv44]

again , thank you for the very generous offer. it seems that quick load is just available as a windows based program? is this true?

Quickload, https://www.neconos.com/ , is a wonderful tool for playing what if. What if I seated this bullet deeper, what would the pressure change be? The answers are there at just the click of a button. Quickload is not a substitute for a loading manual, but if there isn't any load data for what you want to do, then it will get you close. Your next best reloading friend is a chronograph. Velocity doesn't come for free, you either have to burn more powder, or raise the pressure. So if your velocities are similar to what Quickload has predicted, then you can assume that the pressure should be similar also. But if your velocity is higher than predicted, then the pressure will probably be higher also.
Quickload is a little pricey at $152.95, but it is such a wonderful tool. I bought my copy many years ago when it came on a floppy disc, so I have only had to pay for the upgrade version to stay current.
If you reload alot, or like to stray from the beaten path, then it is money well spent. You can select any cartridge, bullet and powder combination and see what would happen.
They will even let you download a demo copy to play with for free. I think that it only has the 300 win mag in it, but it will give you an idea of what to expect.
https://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

Now with all of that out of the way, if you have any specific bullets that you want to seat flush, I'd be more than happy to plug the numbers into Quickload to give you an idea of where to start.
What I will need is the bullet length, the seated length, powders you are interested in and the barrel length of your firearm.
Glenn.

[Larry Gibson]

sv44

"I know, from reading a lot of the internet discussions, that the change in seating depth for a full wadcutter makes a safe load potentially unsafe or even deadly. With this in mind, if i subtract the full wadcutter load COL from the published data COL i would get a factor to reduce the published load by. Subtracting this factor from the published load would give me a load that might be considered in range.
first, does this make sense to you guys with experience?
second, what other factors am i not taking into account? for example, if the load is fast burning vs moderate does that change how i should be thinking of this?"

One could probably come up with a "formula" for the use of one bullet, one powder, in one firearm.....perhaps. But as a general rule there is no "formula" for what you ask because there are just too many variables. That is why all loading manuals caution to "start low and work up". I know we frequently get asked "what is a "safe load?". Well using a different bullet that seats deeper in the case can and does raise pressure which, as you say "makes a safe load potentially unsafe". Ergo, find data for the powder you are using with a similar weight bullet and use the "start" load and work up. Use a chronograph because velocity equal pressure (there is no free lunch there) and chronograph the loads. When you reach the max velocity listed for the max load listed with the similar in weight bullet with a lessor load your using with your WC you can bet the pressure is close to the "max" listed for the other similar in weight bullet......so stop working up there as whatever load you use which produces the max listed velocity is the max load for your WC bullet.

Also be advised, QL is only an educated guess based on how much "education" (the amount of CORRECT data you input) you give it. even then it can vary. I've no problem with QL other than with those who use minimal or guessed at data and expect accurate results from it. With appropriate and correct data input QL can give a close approximation. The key is "appropriate and correct" along with a sufficient amount of such data.

Having measured the pressure of many thousands of loads over the last 12 years I have found there is enough variation in actual measured psi's to assume a computer model with minimal input or incorrect input will give a safe answer is questionable. Properly working up a load is just as safe, especially with the advent of readily available chronographs and their proper use. No, the chronograph does not measure pressure but using it as I described will get you as close as QL will.

[lar45]

Yes, I think that it is windows only. What platform do you use? can you get a windows emulator for it?

[fredj338]

As you know, full wadcutters seat deeper in the case. What makes some loads for that same boolit weight unsafe for the wadcutters is with slower powders that fill up the case more you will get compressed loads.

I use faster powders that require less powder to avoid this.

you measure the depth the wadcutter seats and the height of the powder in the case to see if it will compress or not.

not to confuse you but some powders work OK with compressed loads but I like to keep things simple

THis is probably assbackwards. Powder compression in itself is not an issue. Slower powders in smaller cases are almost always 100% compressed or more, no issues. The issue comes from compressing faster powders.
To the OP, lead data in general for most handguns is limited. Then when you start playing with oddball bullets, you are pretty much on your own. So what I would do if looking for say 200gr WC loads for a 44 would be use starting data for 240-250gr LSWC & work that up.