What is going on with the 6.5x55 load data?

[BD]

So this is mostly a complaint. I've long shot old Swedes and my daily deer rifle, (AKA "truck gun") is an old swede I cut down to 22" to lose the wear at the muzzle. I paid $100 for that rifle and 50 for the plastic ramline stock I bedded it into. When I was younger it would shoot under 1/2 MOA with both 120 gr Nosler BTs and 140 grain Speer hot cores. Mostly over RL22, or WC 852s. Well this year I'm out of both RL 22 and the 120 grain BTs and the Speer hot cores. And since my eyes are older, (trifocals), I ditched the scout scope and turned down the bolt handle. I'm thinking "we'll tune 'er up and put some 6 power glass on. Maybe some new loads? Come on into the 21st century. So, since I had to buy supplies anyway, I decided to try some of the new stuff. I've had good luck with Hornady ELD-X bullets in my elk rifle so I thought I'd try the 143's in the swede and maybe some of Sierra's new 130 grain tipped game kings. I started looking around at data thinking that the new RL 23 would be perfect, but the data is way out in left field. Alliant's data is now divided into "military" and "commercial". The loads are WAY lower than what I've been running for the last 20 years. Quickload puts the military loads under 10,000 psi! What is this? The commercial loads for the 6.5x55 are all under 15,000 psi! What are they thinking? The MAP for the 6.5x55 is Sammi 51,000 psi and CIP 55,000. So I went through everything I could find on line and the only stuff out there that's even close to what it used to be is Nosler and Hogdon. The Speer military 140 grain loads using RL22 are 7 grains lower than they were in Speer #3, we're talking not a single load of any powder over 80% case capacity, or 10,000 psi. Alliant is the same thing. The RL 23 load I thought should work great they have at less than 85% case capacity, and it's UNDER 20,000 psi for COMMERCIAL actions? What is going on here? I did a little quick math comparison and both Speer and Alliant show max load data for the 6.5 Creedmore that's at about 87% of Saami max, but the commercial 6.5 x55 data is around 70% of saami max, and for military actions its at only 19%. Did all of those old mausers fade into dust when they turned 100 years old or what? Does the 6.5 x 55 make a modern action inherently weaker than a .270 or a creed more? Or, has all of the old data been disproven and Quickload discredited? It's like everything I thought I knew about one of the cartridges I know best is no longer true.

[BigBore45]

The 6.5 Swede has been down played to make the 6.5CM look better
As has the 260 Remington

Find European data for the 6.5 Swede. They still run the old girl up there in pressure.

[Texas by God]

Or an older manual and older powders

[txbirdman]

About 30 years ago I bought a Swede carbine for $100 that had been sporterized with a new bolt handle and a cheap scope but with Redfield rings and bases. I have used that rifle as my truck gun and loaner rifle ever since. I put a 4X Leupold on it and don’t recall ever having to resight it. My load from day 1 has been 39 gr of IMR 4064 with the Hornady 129 gr Interlock. I’ve probably killed more game with that rifle than any other because it was always the one I had with me. Having a 17” barrel I only get about 2500 FPS out of it but it’s plenty of gun for our Texas white tails and coyotes. After reading your post I checked the Hogdon website and it lists 39.2 gr as the maximum load with the same components. Guess it’s still safe to shoot awhile longer.

[smithnframe]

A 6.5x55 Swede will out perform any 6.5 Creedmoor in a modern rifle! I haven't jumped on the Creedmoor bandwagon!

[gnoahhh]

Are you sure about those 10K, 15K, 20K psi figures? Perhaps European metric values that you're mis-reading as psi? Dunno, spitballing here.

Personally, I treat 100+ year old army Mausers with a little more caution than I do my Winchester XTR FWT 6.5x55 and Ruger #1 6.5x55. No matter how good those old girls are (and I love 'em to death) they are indeed ancient now and I don't know what for malfeasance they were subjected to before falling into my hands.

I've fallen in love with Lapua Scenars, 139 grain, driven by IMR-4831. My-oh-my talk about accurate.

[BD]

Those pressure figures are what quickload is telling me about the new lower load levels from Alliant and Speer. There's a couple of other sources I'd like to compare to the older load manuals, (like Hornady), but I'm not willing to buy the new manual just to find out about this. I don't know what to make of the Western Powder's data as they list loads much lower than what Quickload tells me will produce <50,000 psi with velocities that are much higher than I'm seeing over my chrony, and they list them as producing 54,000 psi. They don't tell you whose barrel they're using, and they're loading OAL way shorter in most cases. I can only assume a combination of a newer, tighter chamber, much shorter throat and possibly American brass is running the pressure up for the test barrel?
It just aggravates me, as like txbirdman I've been hunting with this truck gun for over 20 years mostly using 47 grains of RL22 under a Speer 140 grain "Hot Core" SP. I killed a lot of game with it and I don't think I've ever retired a piece of Lapua brass. It is disconcerting to feel like something you thought you knew pretty well at this point is now all up in the air again. I'd buy a brand new Tikka in 6.5 x 55 in a heartbeat if I could find a T3 lite with a 24" barrel. I don't see much point in buying a new one so I can load to modern pressure levels with slower powders if I'm only using a 22" barrel.

[john.k]

You should remember that that the 6.5x55 was also used in military Krags,and a good number of these have been blown up......

[Texas by God]

BD- when I got my Tikka T3 25-06 more than a decade ago I knashed my teeth about the 22” barrel at first but soon realized the accuracy outweighed 100 or so FPS in the general scheme of things. I love the lightweight wonder and it has been sub MOA out to the far end of the hayfield (500 yds). If I need to shoot something that far away- out it comes. The 6.5x55 should be even better at distance with those fancy expensive( thanks, Creedmore!) .264” bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

"What is going on with the 6.5x55 load data"

Most all the manual data now adheres to SAAMI MAPs, especially where older rifles such as the Krags are involved. The SAAMI MAP (Transducer psi's) for the 6.5x55 is 51,000 psi where the 6.5 Creedmore is 62,000 psi. It's just that simple.

I've loaded my own 6.5x55s to European pressures (55,000 psi) using older data and pressure testing (Oehler M43 PBL) for use in my Swedish M96 and M38s. I push the Hornady 140 SP at 2745 fps with H4831SC at 54,500 psi. With IMR 4350 I push the 129 Hornady SP to 2927 fps at55,700 psi. I also load the 120 Remington, 120 Speer and 120 Nosler BT into the 2900 fps range with psi's in the 55 - 56,000 range. All out of a 22" Mexican SR M98 with Swede 6.5x55 milsurp barrel or the Swede M38 with 24" barrel.

In a modern action such as a M70, M700, Ruger M77, Savage or Tikka I wouldn't have any qualms loading the 6.5x55 up into the 60,000 +/- psi range. Thus when I hear all the hype about the 6.5 Creedmore I just yawn.........

[txbirdman]

Well there’s no reason you can’t have both, I do. In addition to my Swede carbine I have a Ruger 77 Predator in 6.5 CM that I use for long range target shooting. IMO the CM has the advantage for today’s high BC bullets by allowing you to seat the base in the neck rather than below the shoulder while using a short action. My rifle is far from a modern precision rifle like the competition shooters use but I’m able to hit a 10” plate at 1000 yds with about half of my attempts using 130 gr Berger Hybrids with RE17. It really has no practical use but I love hearing that gong ring.

[koger]

Txbirdman I have had just the opposite result in seating the 140 and up bullet with old swede. Every barrel or rifle I have had, has a long tapered leade in the throat, so you can easily seat the with the bottom of the bullet about at the shoulder junction. I shoot 41.0 grains of 3031 behind a 120Sierra sp, and it kills like lightning, and shoots flat out of my 1926 Husqvarna, that I sporterized about 35 years ago. That bullet is 1 grain over the max, but I have had no issues out of it, runs about 3000fps right on the dot. I killed my longest shot to date on a deer last year, shot a 5 point at 510yds, quartering away to the left. the bullet went in behind the last rib, took out all the goodies, and blew the front right leg off above the knee. It was zeroed 3" high at 100yds and is about dead on between 300-350yds. At the 510 mark I held just on the top of his back.Start with 40grs and it should shoot ligts out. My rifle I built in 1985, has had thousands of rounds thru it and still shoots a 3 shot group under an inch at 300yds with the 120. Even better with the 140btsp. The last group I shot with the 140's went into .278 at 200yds. This rifle an cartridge has made me look like a helluva lot better shot than I am over the past 35 years. BD if I can be of any help, let me know. I did load development over 3 years, trying about 12 powders, 5 different primers, and different cases. I have loads that will shoot under 1/2" at 100yds, near max velocities, for the 85, 107, 120, 140, and 160 grain bullets, all with IMR3031. It was the second powder and I could never get anything to come close to beating in, for accuracy in my barrel with a 1-7.5 twist. Let me know if you want to try them!

[txbirdman]

Yes sir! Those old military rifles do have those long throats. I think they originally shot 160’s in them. I was thinking in terms of short action I guess. My 17.7” carbine will never get to your velocities however I have taken coyotes at over 300 yds a time or two. Mine’s handy to maneuver in tight spaces though.

[richhodg66]

I had a sporterized Swede I couldn't get to shoot well with anything, Jacketed or cast. Traded it off and don't miss it. Even gave a box and a half of factory PPU ammo to a friend the other day, didn't figure on needing it until Friday when I walked in a local shop and found a nicely sporterized '98 Mauser chambered in 6.5x55. Priced reasonably too. I still have dies, brass, molds etc...

I should stay out of gun stores.

[BD]

So Larry, what do you think is up with the published loads being reduced to the 10,000 to 15,000 psi range? What are they thinking?

[Stewbaby]

Lawyers, insurance and risk aversion cause these issues.

They are plenty strong in general (if not abused).

[Larry Gibson]

So Larry, what do you think is up with the published loads being reduced to the 10,000 to 15,000 psi range? What are they thinking?

Alliant data (commercial) for the 140 Speer using RL22 shows a load of 45 gr.

Alliant data (military) for the 140 gr Hornady SST using RL22 shows a load of 43.6 gr.

There is no way in hades either of those loads will give pressures as low as you've got from QL. I suggest a recalculation of QL with a closer attention to the data input. No criticism is intended here so please don't take it personally.

QL can be a good tool and it can give results that can be close +/-. However, it all depends on the quantity of correct data that is input. The more data that is input the closer the +/- will be to correct. However, any wrong data input can really skew the results even farther out from a reasonable +/- calculation. QL is only an educated guess.....you must give it sufficient and correct data to make that guess.

[Heyboy]

I’m a huge fan of the 6.5x55 cartridge myself. I just bought 2 more 96s, that puts me up to 5 rifles total, 3 military and a cz 550fs and a custom 77 with a shillen select match barrel. I’m at 46 1/2 RL 22 in the 77 with eldxs and no problem. A bunch of the old timers tell me stories of case full of military surplus powder back in the day seating a bullet and shooting the old military rifles. This is my first post on the forum and look forward to learning from you all. Thanks.

[303Guy]

Welcome aboard, Heyboy!

[swheeler]

Lawyers, insurance and risk aversion cause these issues.

They are plenty strong in general (if not abused).

Stewbaby: I want the stock off the M96 third one from the right! The wood they used on many of the old military rifles is just amazing. Nice collection.