Whitney Phoenix Rolling Block cartridges

[Texas by God]

It seems I have a crusty Whitney Phoenix rolling block carbine here. Does anyone here know what the chamberings were? Blue book only mentions vaguely 43, 45, and 50 cal. Seeking clarification. Thanks. It is centerfire.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

So it is a Whitney! I like that term "crusty". This information is from Mr. Norm Flayderman's hefty tome. Appropriate excerpts:

Whitney-Remington Style II Rolling Block, made 1881 - 1888. Total production, all types, estimated 50,000. Upon expiration of Remington's Patent on the basic rolling block action, Whitney essentially copied the action and called it his "New Improved System," in his correspondence he referred to it as his "Remington Type".

Upper tang is usually marked WHITNEY ARMS COMPANY, NEW HAVEN CT USA and caliber marking at breech of barrel.
Carbine (Military); total production estimated 5,000. Most of production to Central and South America.

Carbine (Civilian): total production estimated 2,000. Occasionally found marked LITTLE WONDER 32 on top of barrel.

The only caliber information shown is 38-40, 44-40, 45-60, and 50-95 under No. 1 Sporting and Target Rifle, and .22 short, long, 32 short, long, 38 long, and 44-40 under No. 2 Sporting Rifle.

Seems as though he used conventional (mostly Winchester) cartridges of that time period. Too bad your carbine is crusty, but because of the limited production of the carbines it may be worth more than you think.

[Texas by God]

Using the pictures on the Blue Book site, it SEEMS to be a Whitney Phoenix carbine. There is no writing on it unless it’s under the crust. On the barrel, forend tenon, and rear sight the number 900 is stamped. The BB states 1000 as the production for the Phoenix carbine. I’ll get some pics up but I would grade it as “nice relic”. The ugly slug I beat in and out of the muzzle end measures roughly .437”. It belongs for now to a cousin- I’m just researching it. The bore looks like hell.

[kootne]

Whitney made 2 generations of rolling blocks and also "Phoenix" actions but the Phoenix is not the same as the rolling blocks. The Phoenix block does roll but to the side in the manner of Snider actions. The rolling blocks are similar to the Remington, the first one with extra stuff to get around Remington's patent and the second after the patent expired is pretty much the same as a Remington.
Not trying to be a "know it all", just curious about any old rifle that somebody digs out of the woodwork. Looking forward to the pictures.

[Texas by God]

Thanks kootne, you are a know it all- l googled Whitney Phoenix and saw the swing block you refer to. The Blue Book site is different and clearly labels it the same? This is definitely a roller. Here's some rough pics of a rough little carbine. The rim recess seems to be 45-70 size but its definitely not that.

[Texas by God]

Some more.

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, like Artie Shaw used to say, "Verrry interesting." I think you may have a Model 1871 Spanish carbine. The Spanish used the Rolling Block as their official rifle and carbine, and purchased the first 10,000 from Remington. Thereafter they produced them at Oviedo arsenal in Spain.

Many were used in Cuba before the advent of the 1893 Mauser. Since your carbine doesn't seem to have the Remington information on the top tang, I suspect it is of Spanish origin. One interesting thing is what appears to be the buttstock sling attachment loop on the left side. It is buried in the wood instead of being a screw on attachment, and I have seen that on the Spanish M-43 La Coruna Mausers, but nowhere else. However, all the photos I have of the 1871, both rifle and carbine, show screwed on sling swivels beneath the weapon; but then again they're all taken from the right side, so if the type your carbine has is there one couldn't see it. The caliber is very likely .43 Spanish, the carbine version.

It would be nice to speculate that it might have been brought home from the Spanish American War, but more likely was among a batch sold off by the Spanish following WW II. Don't you love a mystery? I remember that the Spanish company "Star" was still making them when I was a kid, and I think you could find them listed in early copies of "The Gun Digest" and "Shooter's Bible". They were chambered for .44-40 and plainly marked. I used a Star-made forestock for my Argentine carbine project, but it required some inletting and shaping, and was not walnut.

[Texas by God]

Thanks, DG. I was mistaken it was GunDigest gun values site that called it a Whitney Phoenix. I believe the buttstock is an ersatz replacement. I'm going to disassemble it when I have time; if the owner doesn't want it back I'll want to make it into a shooter something. Or sell it to a BBQ joint for a wallhanger

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[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Texas,

I've seen them listed in .32 RF, up to 20 ga.
I looked for more info, not much out there.
It is definitely a Whitney with that style pins.

AntiqueSledMan.

[TNsailorman]

One of those in .44-40 would make a great little brush gun. You know, hawgs, havalena, deer. I saw one many years ago made by Star and I wish I had bought it. I don't remember what caliber it was but it was a little jewel. james

[Texas by God]

The only Star Rolling Block carbines I saw were in Shooter's Bible/ GunDigest books in my youth. They were offered in 30-30 Win and .44 mag only if I recall correctly. And I always wanted one. I've never encountered one in person.


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[curator]

The action pin retainer is typical of Whitney rolling blocks. Do a chamber cast with Cerosafe to determine what the gun is chambered for. .437 bore "could be" .43 Spanish, but a chamv=ber cast will tell for certain.

[Texas by God]

what is up with the ring on the breech face Block? where they made that way or is that ring from the imprint of thousands of cartridge rims? Thank you all for your replies. When I get time, I'm going to take a steel brush and PB blast to the bore to see if I can see anything! Currently it looks like the inside of an old galvanized water pipe.

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[kootne]

I am guessing this is how your breech block got that way;
1. Fire weapon with black powder.
2. Don't bother to clean the bore.
3. Stand weapon in a rack or corner in a humid climate with muzzle up.
4. Be patient.

I would check the headspace if you do plan to shoot it. As long as the center is not rotted away I personally would not worry about shooting it with black powder loads, don't use 3f powder or heavy/over bore size bullets. That will keep pressure down even more. Make sure the firing pin is free and not corroded to a point, or have excess protrusion. It should have a nice round tip. Get a new one if needed, so it doesn't rupture a primer (this IS the voice of experience speaking here). Back to the head space thing, a lot of those old roller cartridges have .080 or thicker rims, this normal. Keep that in mind if you are forming your own. Buffalo Arms in Ponderay, Id. will probably have a case that will have the thick rims that can be made to work if your gun needs them. Or Bob Hayley (some where in Texas) is another guy that will make shells for anything. Maybe you already know all this.
Have fun but be safe.
Dennis

[Texas by God]

I think you left out the part about let it get rained on a lot, kootne. I do know of Bob Haley in Seymour but I'll see if there is any rifling present first. Thanks!

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