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Thread: .45-70 too short?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy iwottopq's Avatar
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    .45-70 too short?

    Hello go all.
    Today I was reloading some .45-70 ammo wigh 60 grains of FFg Chdddite BP. When inserted the bullets the ammo appears to shorts, about 63 millimeters. The bullet is Lee C457-500-F that weights about 491 our of the mold and then PC.
    Questions:
    This ammo is too short?
    The BP in the case (Hornady) is too compressed?
    Is it dangerous to shoot?
    Thanks in advance for your help...
    Ciao
    Nino

  2. #2
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    Butler Ford's Avatar
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    I would not shoot that load.
    "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."--Plato

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    that lee bullet is a gas check, correct? is that real black powder or a substitute? i'm not sure what you've built but have you first created a dummy cartridge to check the OAL and where the bullet sits at or before the lands? once that's been created, and the dummy chambers well, build your real cartridges.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy iwottopq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    that lee bullet is a gas check, correct? Yes, it is a gas check bullet is that real black powder or a substitute? It is a real black powder i'm not sure what you've built but have you first created a dummy cartridge to check the OAL and where the bullet sits at or before the lands? once that's been created, and the dummy chambers well, build your real cartridges.
    Hello...in bold characters some answers...and of I made a cartridge more long it don't enter in the chamber. The rifle is a Pedersoli 1873 Sharps...

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    Boolit Buddy iwottopq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Ford View Post
    I would not shoot that load.
    Why???

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwottopq View Post
    Hello...in bold characters some answers...and of I made a cartridge more long it don't enter in the chamber. The rifle is a Pedersoli 1873 Sharps...
    have you ever reloaded cartridges before? if so, you MUST at least make up a dummy cartridge that will chamber well in your gun. that you built a cartridge that is too long and will not chamber, means at least take that cartridge back to your seating die and push in the bullet a scant amount more until it chambers in your gun. that will be a cartridge OAL that will allow real cartridges to chamber and fire.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy iwottopq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    have you ever reloaded cartridges before? if so, you MUST at least make up a dummy cartridge that will chamber well in your gun. that you built a cartridge that is too long and will not chamber, means at least take that cartridge back to your seating die and push in the bullet a scant amount more until it chambers in your gun. that will be a cartridge OAL that will allow real cartridges to chamber and fire.
    Hello.
    Are about 35 years that I reload all calibers that I shoot...but I have little experience with the black powder in metallic case. I shoot also with muzzleloader...
    The question is not the COL but the fact that the BP is, I think, too compressed...and this is my pain...

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    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwottopq View Post
    Hello.
    Are about 35 years that I reload all calibers that I shoot...but I have little experience with the black powder in metallic case. I shoot also with muzzleloader...
    The question is not the COL but the fact that the BP is, I think, too compressed...and this is my pain...
    The fact is loading black powder is a whole different program having some major differences with your experience muzzle loaders do not apply. Get a good book on loading cartridge with black and your problem goes away ,seriously/Ed

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    what ed said. you're thinking about white powder when indeed it's black.

    YES, THE PROBLEM IS OAL.

    the easy cheap way is to incrementally seat a bullet in a case until the cartridge chambers well. measure the depth the bullet went into the case. the rest of the case space is how much room there is to add powder and a wad - you are using a wad? all of this is because we don't want any black powder air space, which means adding at least a little bit of powder compression. so your first poster was right - i wouldn't shoot the cartridge you just built, it's probably all wrong.

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    Boolit Master

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    Maybe I'm all wrong but I seem to have a different take on the original post? Are we talking about a cartridge that is over-all too long or is it about those too short HORNADY cases? Is the OP aware that Hornady cases are shorter than "normal" 45/70 cases? I didn't see anywhere he said the round would not chamber but rather my take is that he can't get the bullet to seat properly on the 60 grain charge.
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    Hello Nino!
    Please understand the posters here are not being difficult or critical, rather they are concerned for your safety. Perhaps you could provide us with more detail such as the length of the Hornady cases you are using, the length of your bullet, the amount of compression, are you using a drop tube, are you using an over-powder wad or grease wad? Also, in your OP, you mentioned PC. Are you Powder Coating these bullets? Oldred is correct in that Hornady cases tend to be shorter than normal. The standard trimmed length of a .45-70 case should be 2.105 inches (53.5 mm), and the overall cartridge length 2.550 inches (64.8 mm) (SAAMI spec - yours might be longer depending on the throat of your rifle.) I also agree with Edward to get a book on Black Powder Cartridge Rifle loading, or you can start by reading this from the BPCR.net website. Until then, I would agree with the other posters not to shoot this ammunition. Ed
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    Boolit Master
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    oldred is right the hornady brass is short and there is your biggest problem , they are pushing there bullet that needs a shorter case , buy starline brass or reduce powder to the right compression .

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    Yes, oldred is correct. Hornady cases are too short as they are made for use with the flex tip jacketed bullet.
    Larry Gibson

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    Boolit Buddy iwottopq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    The fact is loading black powder is a whole different program having some major differences with your experience muzzle loaders do not apply. Get a good book on loading cartridge with black and your problem goes away ,seriously/Ed
    Hello.
    Thanks for your advice but...but...in my home language, Italian, there are not good books on loading black powder and again less on the BPCR...and the best titles are made by you Americans but are so hard to find in my country. And this is a great problem for me...
    I have find some on the web but I am a slow reader because my English is a scholastic English and I have some experience as a ham radio operator...
    Sorry for the long thread...
    Ciao
    Nino

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy iwottopq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    The fact is loading black powder is a whole different program having some major differences with your experience muzzle loaders do not apply. (for this reason I asked on this forum that I consider the best on the web Get a good book on loading cartridge with black and your problem goes away ,seriously/Ed
    Hello...in bold characters a little reply...

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    Boolit Buddy iwottopq's Avatar
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    ...and this is the only ammo that I loaded and below a bullet...
    You can note how the bullet is in the case...
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    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwottopq View Post
    ...and this is the only ammo that I loaded and below a bullet...
    You can note how the bullet is in the case...
    Even with a short case, you can make ammo. More of the bullet will be sticking out and you may have leading. As long as the base of the bullet is seated firmly on the powder charge, even if the black powder is highly compressed, there is no danger, especially not from 60 grains of black powder. I note that your bullet is powder coated, a condition which will give bad results with black powder. The bullet must be greased or a grease wad placed under the bullet but over the powder to keep the residue of firing soft.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  18. #18
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    as long as the case itself will chamber well, there is no pressing concern with its length, other than consistent performance accuracy.

    the precepts of loading black powder cartridges starts and ends with no appreciable air space in the case. the rest will dictate performance and not safety to the gun or its shooter. for a groove loaded lubed bullet, this demands identifying the completed cartridge's max OAL. this is why we build a dummy cartridge, or use a hornady OAL comparatof, or one of many other OAL determining methods. when a dummy cartridge chambers well, simple measurements will dictate the case space available under the bullet. fill the case to that predetermined measurement, add a wad, compress back to that predetermined measurement, seat the lubed bullet. then load development can begin (if need be).

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Yes, oldred is correct. Hornady cases are too short as they are made for use with the flex tip jacketed bullet.
    If he is purchasing Hornady component cases they are NOT to short, they are 2.1 inches long, and probably the best cases available for blackpowder loading the 45-70.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    If he is purchasing Hornady component cases they are NOT to short, they are 2.1 inches long, and probably the best cases available for blackpowder loading the 45-70.
    I have some Hornady 45/70 brass that is indeed full length and several boxes of empties I was recently given that are too short, the short ones are fired flex tip rounds that were given to me by a friend who does not reload and the full length were also previously fired rounds of unknown origin (other than being Hornady) that were purchased at a gun show. So yes there are indeed two very different case lengths manufactured by Hornady and apparently the only noticeable difference is the length, even the head stamps appear to be the same. I probably should have mentioned this in my reply, I didn't mean to imply that all Hornady 45/70 brass was short just that from his description of the problem and the fact he mentioned using Hornady brass I "assumed" that the very common short version of the brass could very well be the problem.
    Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check