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View Poll Results: What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?

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  • .357 Magnum

    22 23.66%
  • 45 Long Colt

    72 77.42%
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Thread: What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    Not a fan of kinetic energy? Then what does the higher velocity give you? When you double the velocity of a mass, the energy increases 4 times.

    Ok... now be fair. You have chosen high end .357 ammo to make your point. Do the same with high end Buffalo Bore .45 colt +P Deer Granades. Or some of the other offerings they have. Like the BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .45 Colt +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo.
    How is comparing standard pressure 357 magnum to +P 45 colt fair? This is assuming Buffalo Bore is loading that load within SAMMI spec of 35,000 PSI. What if we load the 357 magnum to the old standard, or CIP standards of about 43,000 PSI?

    45 colt can and has been loaded all the way up to 454 casull levels at 60,000 PSI as far as I know, although I do not consider even the magnum 35,000+ PSI loads a good idea. So where are we going to draw the line? Standard pressure 45 colt, as set by SAMMI is right at 45 ACP levels. 357 magnum smokes both of those cartridges in all categories, except you could have a slightly larger meplat on a solid bullet in a 45.

  2. #42
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    The OP stated these are Rossi rifles. He didn't state if they are single shot or 92 Lever Guns but it is posted under lever guns so I am going with that.. Either way what is fair is to compare safe loads in the OPs firearm's for both he 357 and 45 Colt.

    SAAMI for 45 Colt is 14,000PSI and 45 ACP is 21,000 PSI. SAAMI pressure is determined by the weakest firearms that will be commonly encountered.

    In a Rossi 92 14,000 PSI is not even close to max.

    CIP is a European Standard and pressures are given in bars. A bar is 100,000 Pascals or 0.1 Megapascals (MPa), which is 0.987 standard atmospheres, or 14.504 psi. So, multiply bars by that number to convert to psi.

    If you are referring to CUP the method of testing changed the actual pressure did not.

    Some interesting and informative discussion on 357 pressure changes here.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...num)-longevity

    On a side note the 2 deer I took with a 1873 Cattlemen in 45 Colt with a Lyman 454190 at around 800 FPS didn't make it 40 yards.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-20-2019 at 04:31 PM.
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  3. #43
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    I would jump 'outside the box'...and choose a 41 Mag.
    some folks like the 43 mag, but if you are considering a Levergun, the 43 just has so many issues that are solved with the 41.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckshotshoey View Post
    Not a fan of kinetic energy? Then what does the higher velocity give you? When you double the velocity of a mass, the energy increases 4 times.

    Ok... now be fair. You have chosen high end .357 ammo to make your point. Do the same with high end Buffalo Bore .45 colt +P Deer Granades. Or some of the other offerings they have. Like the BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .45 Colt +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo.
    So, when you quoted 1000 fpe remaining energy at 150 yards (with no further data given) you were not using top-end loads?
    If you recall my original post, I said that I chose the .45 Colt, but was also defending the .357 especially at longer range. So what is your point?

    Over the years I have seen many people denigrate the .357 Magnum carbine by assuming handgun velocities, and with current low pressure SAAMI spec ammo at that. That Buffalo Bore ammo is not +P ammo; it is just loaded to original .357 pressures. I used it because there are actual published numbers from a carbine that I can point to; not because it's a special load. I've been loading .357 that way for decades for rifles, single and double action revolvers.

    You don't have to convince me that .45 Colt is a good round; it's one of my favorites. But I just posted up some actual numbers to show that .357 Mag works extremely well in a rifle. All you've done is say "nuh-uh! .45 Colt does 1000 fpe at 150 yards!" No velocity, no load listed, no trajectory numbers, no real data.

  5. #45
    Boolit Buddy Cast_outlaw's Avatar
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    Ok so let’s look at it this way both 45, and 357 will take dear out to 100 yards no problem, providing if you do your part. Just remember you are the one carrying the gun and ammo in the bush, and have to comfortable with shooting it. the 357 will probably be a little lighter rifle, and lighter ammo for each round carried. as your hunting you probably won’t be carrying much ammo. So whatever one your more confident with is probably the best if you hit your mark.
    Happy hunting
    Cast outlaw

  6. #46
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Read my first post.... both are good within their own limits. And its completely fair to quote +P loads. The Rossi will digest them and ask for more.

    As for data, I have this, and can come up with more if you want it....

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	R92_45Colt_Inventory_Load.jpg 
Views:	20 
Size:	60.1 KB 
ID:	248549

    Unfortunately it doesn't show the powder used. I will research that. And this one shows 1300 fps, and over 1000 fpe at 150. And take note it drops less then 6 inches. Bullet path... not bullet drop. I'm sure you know the difference.

    I copied and pasted this from another forum. But the guy said it well...

    "I have 4 5/8" and 7 1/2" Blackhawks in .45 Colt as well as a 20" Rossi Model 92 carbine, an Armi Sport Model 1892 take down rifle, and a Model 94 Trapper all in .45 Colt.

    The Model 1892 is a very strong action. It was based on the Model 1886, but with a shorter bolt and shorter receiver, it's much stronger. In fact, it's been chambered in the .454 Casull which operates at 50,000 CUP - about 60,000 psi.

    On the other hand, the 1873 Winchester uses a toggle design that works fine with the .44-40, .38-40 which operated at 13,000 and 14,000 CUP respectively. It, like the Model 1892, was never chambered in the .45 Colt, at least until the modern smokeless powder era, but the 1873 is strong enough to accommodate standard .45 Colt loads operating at 14,000 psi, as well as the 38 Special operating at 17,000 psi and the .38+P at 18,500 psi. The 1873 is chambered in .357 Magnum (35,000 psi) as well, but higher round counts will start to stretch the pin in the toggle and increase headspace. Given the larger case head of the .45 Colt, 23,000 psi Tier 2 .45 Colt loads would not be healthy for an 1873 and 32,000 psi Tier 3 loads would probably break one in a hurry.

    You'll find rifle data for the .357 Magnum operating at 35,000 psi - with velocities around 1800 fps for 158 gr bullets and 2200 fps for 125 gr bullets in 20" barrels.

    However, you won't find rifle data for the .45 Colt, due to the weakness of the 1873 rifles chambered for it. Published .45 Colt rifle data tends to use the same medium burning powders as non Ruger .45 Colt revolver data, with 255 gr bullet velocities around 1100 fps - about 200 fps faster than in a revolver.

    In contrast, Ruger only revolver data uses slower powders like IMR 4227, Win 296 and 2400, and 250 gr velocities in the 1350-1450 fps range.

    Given the strength of the Model 92 action, I use the same "Ruger Only" loads in my Model 92 rifles and carbines. 1800 fps in a 20" barrel is achievable with a 200 grain bullet, but the recoil is pretty fierce.

    Long story short, you need to be very careful about Tier 2 and 3 loads in .45 Colt rifles, in large part because not all of them are created equal."
    Last edited by buckshotshoey; 09-20-2019 at 10:49 AM.

  7. #47
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    Nobody has much mentioned twist rate. Heavy boolits in the 45 NEED spin to stabilize. I wouldn't pick a slow spin barrel for a 45 Colt. Chiappa makes a levergun in 45 Colt with 1:20 twist, this would be a huge improvement over a slower twist IMHO. All of the Rossi barrels are 1:30 except for the 30-30 which is 1:12.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throat reaming? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? Shoot me a PM! Also on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cylinderhone-756429174391912/

  8. #48
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    If you are willing to load to the Ruger/TC loads, then absolutely the 45 colt will beat the 357 magnum in all ways except ammo availability. Being reloaders this is no concern, and the rifles should be the same size/weight.

    That's all I was asking as old cartridges like 45 colt, 44 special, 32-20, etc. were never intended to be loaded to what they are now. Other than the headstamp, I can hardly call a 45 colt loaded to 35K PSI or higher still a 45 colt. That is a wildcat in a 45 case.

    I can get on board with +P, 23,000 psi. In that case it looks like that put it on par with 357 magnum with 200 grain bullets, plus has the diameter advantage. If you use heavier bullets, even better.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    If you are willing to load to the Ruger/TC loads, then absolutely the 45 colt will beat the 357 magnum in all ways except ammo availability. Being reloaders this is no concern, and the rifles should be the same size/weight.

    That's all I was asking as old cartridges like 45 colt, 44 special, 32-20, etc. were never intended to be loaded to what they are now. Other than the headstamp, I can hardly call a 45 colt loaded to 35K PSI or higher still a 45 colt. That is a wildcat in a 45 case.

    I can get on board with +P, 23,000 psi. In that case it looks like that put it on par with 357 magnum with 200 grain bullets, plus has the diameter advantage. If you use heavier bullets, even better.
    This is from the hunting part of the board, try this if you think the 45 colt of back in the day is like the 44 spl. or 32-20. Fellers ... if in doubt about your 45 Colts, do yourselves a favor ... load the original Colt load;

    ... 40 grains of 2Fg Ol E powder or Swiss ( I have never used Swiss powder but have it on good authority that Swiss and Old E ste neck n neck for cleanliness and power )
    ... compressed so as to be able to seat your 255 grain cast boolit
    ... crimp them in the crimp groove so as to get the most and best ignition and burn from your powder
    ... primed with CCI or Federal large pistol primers ( magnum primers not needed )
    ... load 5 of these in a Colts or Ruger 45 Colt
    ... after squezzing off these first 5 rounds ... gently lay down yer shootin iron and recall that those loads were the FIRST 45 Colt loads circa 1873.

    If these do not impress, maybe you do need those 500 S&W magnums ... but I think you will be very impressed and prolly be tellin the storie many times over!

  10. #50
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    I have a S&W m25-5 83/8" tuned for cast 250gr RNFP original load duplication with Unique. Very accurate and as powerful as needed for most earth based creatures.

  11. #51
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    I will stick with my Orig M92 Win, first yr production, cal 44WCF
    Shot my second last buck with it at about 65 yds. One shot one kill.
    bullet went thru heart/chest cavity. Deer went about 60-70yds and fell dead.
    200gr cast HP/ 1330fps.
    Energy is "whatever"
    beltfed/arnie

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    I would jump 'outside the box'...and choose a 41 Mag.
    some folks like the 43 mag, but if you are considering a Levergun, the 43 just has so many issues that are solved with the 41.
    My favorite mag caliber. I'm with you on this one
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    Nobody has much mentioned twist rate. Heavy boolits in the 45 NEED spin to stabilize. I wouldn't pick a slow spin barrel for a 45 Colt. Chiappa makes a levergun in 45 Colt with 1:20 twist, this would be a huge improvement over a slower twist IMHO. All of the Rossi barrels are 1:30 except for the 30-30 which is 1:12.
    You don't think you could get acceptable accuracy for a reasonable hunting distance with a 1:30 @ that velocity with a 45lc?
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  14. #54
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    Well a 1:28 twist muzzleloader will stabilize a 45 caliber 255 grain bullet.

    @sac, Even the wimpiest of 45 colts are still adequate deer rounds. If I had a 45 colt, it would see nothing but Goex! That said, the classic load of 250 grain bullet and 40 grain blackpowder produces just over 900 fps from a handgun. If ballistics by the inch is any standard, that puts it ballpark 1050-1100 fps from a rifle.

    45 colt has never in it's history been the most powerful handgun. I believe the Colt Walker held that designation all the way up to the 357 magnum. Other than wildcats, the 357 magnum was the most powerful handgun in the world until the 44 magnum in 1955. The rest of the "magnum" craze is history.

    Both are fine deer cartridges, especially in a carbine.

    357 magnum is more powerful than 45 colt. 357 magnum is on par with 45 colt +P. If you need more power, I'll go with the rest and say get the 41 magnum.

  15. #55
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    The most common high performance ammunition that is widely carried is Buffalo Bore. Using their data it's easy to compare.

    Their most potent 357 load is BUFFALO BORE HEAVY 357 MAG 180 gr. JHP (1,500fps/M.E. 899 ft. lbs.)
    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=541

    Their most potent 45 Colt load is Heavy .45 Colt +P OUTDOORSMAN 325 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N. @ 1,325 fps/M.E. 1,267 ft.lbs.
    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...ct_detail&p=38

    On a different note I grew up in a small town. A couple of the LE were national level PPC shooters. I shot with them a lot. They had a lot of confiscated beer to use as targets. This was in the 70's so they still used 357's as a duty firearm. Generic beer was just out. It was really bad but it made good targets and they had a seemingly endless supply. I had purchase 500 of the Speer 200 grain hollow point. Most of them were used to slay full generic cans of beer.

    For beer I used Speer 200 grain hollow points out of Ruger 7 1/2 Blackhawk. When we started doing this they used their standard issue 357 Mag ammo. The 45 Colt with the Speer recommend loads was very impressive. Their duty loads not so much. This started an arms race. They tried all sorts of loads including Super Vel. Nothing in the 357 came close to the explosiveness of the 200 grain Speers out of the 45 Colt.

    For actual deer experience both worked, but I don't ever remember recovering a 45 bullet from a deer. I do remember recovering several 357 bullets but I shot more deer with the 357 Herrett than a standard 357.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-20-2019 at 09:10 PM.
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  16. #56
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    30-30 Winchester, Model 94. 'Nuff said, unless you'd prefer a 35 Remington in qnd old Marlin. Both did the job back in the day, and the projectiles from neither one has a history of bouncing off deer.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlchucker View Post
    30-30 Winchester, Model 94. 'Nuff said, unless you'd prefer a 35 Remington in qnd old Marlin. Both did the job back in the day, and the projectiles from neither one has a history of bouncing off deer.
    Oh yes, the infamous "bounced off a deer". Not quite as great an excuse as "shot bounced off the duck". It's almost scary when people underestimate firearms this bad.

  18. #58
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    I have to vote for the 357 mag due to the fact that I do not own a 45 colt.
    Illinois doesn't, currently, allow rifles for deer other than muzzle loaders anyway so the choice is moot for me.

  19. #59
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    I would be happy with either one under 100 yards. There are no degrees of dead and both will let the air out of deer. Put the boolit in the correct spot and get ready to gut.

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  20. #60
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    I don't agree with 357 as a 150yd deer gun. Yea if you make a classic shot it will kill it just as dead as anything else. That's a big if that isn't taken into consideration. Second in the real world to kill a deer you have to shoot inside 6" at 100yds off hand. Rifle, load and shooter have to be capable of doing this. What a rifle doesn't off the rest means nothing as to a practical deer rifle. I don't know any cartridge that doesn't drop the instant it leaves the muzzle. To avoid hold over you would have to be sighted in at the distance or that would be the optimum range for the bullet to pass through the line of sight on descent. Any ballistics table will show this. I've taken stupid shots mostly at varmits and every once in a while I connect, but it's luck and not the norm.

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