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Thread: Sawdust

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1775usmarine View Post
    I've got a bunch of candles in the garage so I should be set on that. I've been reading up on here almost everyday about something. Got the alloy calculator working on my phone so I can mix my stash of 30/70 solder and pewter into the soft stuff and clip ons.
    It's easy to see you've been reading the older stuff and paying attention. Keep thinking about why your cast bullets are doing something when this or that happens, and then look in a search for as much as you can find on it, then the question you just cannot find an answer without a jump in knowledge, try to replicate your hypotheses in Mr. Gun and see if what you postulate asto the results of changing a variable in the equation.

    Then, come here, report, and seek comments. You will be amazed how quickly the basic mysteries can be solved by doing an Internet search for cast/firearm/loading question you have is utilised. You've got access to most of the information on the planet, why not use it?

    Yes, you are going to find the info that is NOT true, or HALF true, but after a while it will have a smell about it to the point of having a category of multiple stories for each of the three categories. It's quite funny how basic it all is now, with over fifteen years information from folks from all over this world who shoot, and used to shoot ALOT. Who have shared for many years.

    RIP for those of our casting and shooting brethren, far too many have shuffled off this merry-go-round, and thank you to those who always spoke the truth, no matter which way the cards fell.

    Amen.

    You know, I've got to apologise. I don't post much anymore, but every once in a while, when a new caster shows that they have really been paying attention, I will sometimes post encouragement and a very light rebuke on some information you may have posted on. If a guy can stay in the rythm of the thread without having a hissy and replying back how his info is right and who am I to question his information/training.

    Those folks are tougher to unlearn, they've already got misconceptions and bad habits. I don't mean to say it's majically better for those who have tried to educate ourselves in the mysteries of the vagaries of this pursuit of excellence in Pb. It's just that we know that with changing the recipe for the alloy to conform the requirements that you have for the bullet, SO much more than most of conventional wisdom would believe is absolutely undoable at velocities at the upper end of jacketed loads, alloy soft enough to mushroom well at very modest velocities, yet still hold less than ideal riflings that can be made to skid with jacketed at well below top end. There is a mountain of priceless information buried in this site.

    Anyway, sounds like you'll have interesting results to post!
    Last edited by Hamish; 09-23-2019 at 12:47 AM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pworley1 View Post
    I have a saw mill and give saw dust away by the trailer load.
    Can't stop laughing...
    With that in mind, sawdust can be used for other stuff too. Oil spills. Kitty litter? I just love the smell. especially pine. Like to have some laying on the shop floor for the smell .

  3. #23
    Boolit Mold


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish View Post
    It's easy to see you've been reading the older stuff and paying attention. Keep thinking about why your cast bullets are doing something when this or that happens, and then look in a search for as much as you can find on it, then the question you just cannot find an answer without a jump in knowledge, try to replicate your hypotheses in Mr. Gun and see if what you postulate asto the results of changing a variable in the equation.

    Then, come here, report, and seek comments. You will be amazed how quickly the basic mysteries can be solved by doing an Internet search for cast/firearm/loading question you have is utilised. You've got access to most of the information on the planet, why not use it?

    Yes, you are going to find the info that is NOT true, or HALF true, but after a while it will have a smell about it to the point of having a category of multiple stories for each of the three categories. It's quite funny how basic it all is now, with over fifteen years information from folks from all over this world who shoot, and used to shoot ALOT. Who have shared for many years.

    RIP for those of our casting and shooting brethren, far too many have shuffled off this merry-go-round, and thank you to those who always spoke the truth, no matter which way the cards fell.

    Amen.

    You know, I've got to apologise. I don't post much anymore, but every once in a while, when a new caster shows that they have really been paying attention, I will sometimes post encouragement and a very light rebuke on some information you may have posted on. If a guy can stay in the rythm of the thread without having a hissy and replying back how his info is right and who am I to question his information/training.

    Those folks are tougher to unlearn, they've already got misconceptions and bad habits. I don't mean to say it's majically better for those who have tried to educate ourselves in the mysteries of the vagaries of this pursuit of excellence in Pb. It's just that we know that with changing the recipe for the alloy to conform the requirements that you have for the bullet, SO much more than most of conventional wisdom would believe is absolutely undoable at velocities at the upper end of jacketed loads, alloy soft enough to mushroom well at very modest velocities, yet still hold less than ideal riflings that can be made to skid with jacketed at well below top end. There is a mountain of priceless information buried in this site.

    Anyway, sounds like you'll have interesting results to post!
    Thanks I would take a break every 3rd ingot mold filled to look up something that may of happened or if others did something I did like covering my pot with the ingot mold before filling to warm it up some. I was a bit worried when I got sucked in to the forum and let my pot go over 750. Then I remembered Im using stick ons and had removed the few zinc that floated before it got too hot.

    I had about 26lbs of ingots that looked rusty that I had made a few months back fluxed with beeswax that I remelted. Just my observation but if I filled a mold and left the pot half full I would add some dust and then add 2 1lb ingots and let it dropp to 610 and rise to 650. Then add the 2 .5lb ingots and let rise back to 650. Add more dust and mix. Doing that I had a good pace going untill I ran out of those ingots and started the stick on's.

  4. #24
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    Why are you using candle wax in your casting pot? If your ingots have already been fluxed a couple times during smelting why do you need wax in your casting pot? Not trying to be a wise guy, just asking for my own education. I’ve been casting for close to 20 years and have never used any flux in my casting pot. I do get a bit of scum on top when nearing the bottom so I just scoop that off and discard it so perhaps the wax prevents the scum?

  5. #25
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    Just threw away 3 - 32 gal trash cans of clean sawdust from bucking 2 cords of beatle kill pine last weekend. No place to store it, bummer.
    Steve,

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by igolfat8 View Post
    Why are you using candle wax in your casting pot? If your ingots have already been fluxed a couple times during smelting why do you need wax in your casting pot? Not trying to be a wise guy, just asking for my own education. I’ve been casting for close to 20 years and have never used any flux in my casting pot. I do get a bit of scum on top when nearing the bottom so I just scoop that off and discard it so perhaps the wax prevents the scum?
    The first ingots I made were just throw them in and see what happens. After reading here more and got the sawdust opened the box and seen they were funky looking. Decided to remelt and use the sawdust and after a few weeks now they still look shinny.

    Im still wet behind the ears and haven't gotten to casting my first bullets yet as I still need some molds and have more lead to melt. With a 7 month now it'll probably be a while before I start doing some serious casting. I also have some 16gal plastic containers that held ptfe powder in them that I need to clean out so I can put my bars in them according to the source they were melted from. This way once I start using the calculator I can add from my pewter or auto body solder accordingly.

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I flux both when I'm melting scrap and when I'm casting. I flux pretty heavy several times with sawdust followed by wax in my smelting pot. I only use wax or beeswax in my casting pot and usually only once per pot full. Everybody has a method that works for them.

  8. #28
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    So, if I may........ Here are the physics and mechanics for using sawdust and other products when melting down raw lead materials.

    1) Raw lead melts at about 700 degrees or so. It varies with other alloyed metals in the mix. So, tin and antimony, the normal additional alloy metals might increase the melting temp somewhat.
    ZINC - Shudder in horror, melts at a much higher temperature, about 1200 degrees. It will ruin a batch of lead alloy. It's the reason to pre-sort out zinc wheel weights, if that is what you are melting down. IF you overfill your melting pot, and have a few zinc weights at the bottom, where they might see 1200 degrees, the pot and that batch will be ruined. I always start melting my batches with just a few handfuls of raw lead, and then when that melts, I stir in some more. I'm always terrified of some kind of zinc product being at the bottom of a very full smelting pot.
    2) Lead is extremely dense. It is the most dense thing in the pot of molten lead. Toss in a steel bolt and it will float. The sand and other impurities also want to float to the surface, but the overall density of the molten lead prevents them from rising through that dense lead.
    3) Stirring in sawdust, and especially soft pine or other resinous plant fibers creates pathways through the lead for th impurities to travel along, making their way to the top where they can be skimmed off. I usually use a good handful of soft pine shavings (horse bedding) or sawdust, and then stir it in vigorously, stirring all the way to the bottom of the pot. You are trying to create eddy current pathways for the junk to make it through the dense lead. Right when the pine starts to char, and before it burns into ash, I skim it all off the top, along with the sand, and other impurities. I do that three or more times, depending on how nasty the raw lead was.
    4) I then switch over to paraffin wax, old candles from yard sales, they are always cheap. Pieces about the size of a walnut are good. Toss that on the top of the molten lead, and stir, again towards the bottom. Be ready for the wax, with a low burning point, to flare into flames quickly. The melted wax creates even finer pathways through the dense lead, allowing the finer grit to make its way to float on the top. I do the wax a couple to three times, and stir until the wax completey burns off. I allow the lead to tell me when it's done. When constant stirring and scraping on the bottom of the pot no longer loosens the grey dust stuff to the surface, I know I am ready to pour out into ingots.
    5) Watch out for gold colored stuff which might float to the surface. That is typically TIN coming out of solution with the lead. Sure sign that you are overheating the lead in the pot. Turn down the heat, and stir that gold stuff back into solution. Tin helps the lead FLOW into tight corners in your mold.
    6) Ditto for blue or purple stuff rising to the top. That's antimony coming out of solution due to over heating the lead. Antimony is added to make the lead harder. Mix that back into solution, and lower the heat.

    You always want the lead to just barely stay molten during the "fluxing" process. Over heating it risks having tin and antimony come out of solution, and wastes propane or whatever you are using as a heat source.

    Finally, while I am ladling out alloy into ingot molds (I like using cupcake tins), I use the back of the ladle to clear a very shiny path through the lead, and at the end of opening up that shiny area, I dip the ladle into that, to get my lead. I eventually, even after careful cleaning and fluxing, will start to get a bunch of gritty grey crap on the surface again. I stop making ingots and clear that stuff out of the pot. I don't want any of that in my ingots.

    Remember, any grit you leave in the alloy is like sandpaper scraping through the bore of your barrel. I don't want to wear out barrels like that, and hope you don't either. I hope my explanation of how I do it might help others.
    Last edited by DukeInFlorida; 10-11-2019 at 02:32 PM.


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeInFlorida View Post
    So, if I may........ Here are the physics and mechanics for using sawdust and other products when melting down raw lead materials.

    1) Raw lead melts at about 700 degrees or so. It varies with other alloyed metals in the mix. So, tin and antimony, the normal additional alloy metals might increase the melting temp somewhat.
    ZINC - Shudder in horror, melts at a much higher temperature, about 1200 degrees. It will ruin a batch of lead alloy. It's the reason to pre-sort out zinc wheel weights, if that is what you are melting down. IF you overfill your melting pot, and have a few zinc weights at the bottom, where they might see 1200 degrees, the pot and that batch will be ruined. I always start melting my batches with just a few handfuls of raw lead, and then when that melts, I stir in some more. I'm always terrified of some kind of zinc product being at the bottom of a very full smelting pot.
    2) Lead is extremely dense. It is the most dense thing in the pot of molten lead. Toss in a steel bolt and it will float. The sand and other impurities also want to float to the surface, but the overall density of the molten lead prevents them from rising through that dense lead.
    3) Stirring in sawdust, and especially soft pine or other resinous plant fibers creates pathways through the lead for th impurities to travel along, making their way to the top where they can be skimmed off. I usually use a good handful of soft pine shavings (horse bedding) or sawdust, and then stir it in vigorously, stirring all the way to the bottom of the pot. You are trying to create eddy current pathways for the junk to make it through the dense lead. Right when the pine starts to char, and before it burns into ash, I skim it all off the top, along with the sand, and other impurities. I do that three or more times, depending on how nasty the raw lead was.
    4) I then switch over to paraffin wax, old candles from yard sales, they are always cheap. Pieces about the size of a walnut are good. Toss that on the top of the molten lead, and stir, again towards the bottom. Be ready for the wax, with a low burning point, to flare into flames quickly. The melted wax creates even finer pathways through the dense lead, allowing the finer grit to make its way to float on the top. I do the wax a couple to three times, and stir until the wax completey burns off. I allow the lead to tell me when it's done. When constant stirring and scraping on the bottom of the pot no longer loosens the grey dust stuff to the surface, I know I am ready to pour out into ingots.
    5) Watch out for gold colored stuff which might float to the surface. That is typically TIN coming out of solution with the lead. Sure sign that you are overheating the lead in the pot. Turn down the heat, and stir that gold stuff back into solution. Tin helps the lead FLOW into tight corners in your mold.
    6) Ditto for blue or purple stuff rising to the top. That's antimony coming out of solution due to over heating the lead. Antimony is added to make the lead harder. Mix that back into solution, and lower the heat.

    You always want the lead to just barely stay molten during the "fluxing" process. Over heating it risks having tin and antimony come out of solution, and wastes propane or whatever you are using as a heat source.

    Finally, while I am ladling out alloy into ingot molds (I like using cupcake tins), I use the back of the ladle to clear a very shiny path through the lead, and at the end of opening up that shiny area, I dip the ladle into that, to get my lead. I eventually, even after careful cleaning and fluxing, will start to get a bunch of gritty grey crap on the surface again. I stop making ingots and clear that stuff out of the pot. I don't want any of that in my ingots.

    Remember, any grit you leave in the alloy is like sandpaper scraping through the bore of your barrel. I don't want to wear out barrels like that, and hope you don't either. I hope my explanation of how I do it might help others.
    If you were careful, could you purposely skim the antimony to make the lead softer?

  10. #30
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    Why waste such an important mineral?

    Choose your raw material carefully.

    Plumbers lead, roofers lead = dead soft is a perfect imgredient for black powder projectiles

    Berm lead (recovered bullets, usually a mix of cast and jacketed) = great raw ingredient for pistol bullets. Adjust slightly for hardness as needed

    Clip on wheel weights = hard lead, perfect for rifle bullets. Water drop for even more hardness.

    Linotype and mono type = even harder alloy.

    Better to mix amounts of these types to yield what you seek. Don't try to purposefully ruin good alloys by skimming out the minerals in solution.

    I suggest that you read/re-read Glen Fryxell's book: From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners


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  11. #31
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    But what if I think you are ruining good pure lead by adding the impurities of antimony to it? I use soft lead. I have a bunch of hard lead. If I want to remove the antimony what is that to you? It can always be put back in. BAD ANTIMONY BAD. Only horrible people like antimony.

  12. #32
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    Im here to learn and hopefully make the best bullet I can once I get to that stage. Seems casting can become as much of a science as you want compared to the reloading stage.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeInFlorida View Post
    So, if I may........ Here are the physics and mechanics for using sawdust and other products when melting down raw lead materials.

    1) Raw lead melts at about 700 degrees or so. It varies with other alloyed metals in the mix. So, tin and antimony, the normal additional alloy metals might increase the melting temp somewhat.
    ZINC - Shudder in horror, melts at a much higher temperature, about 1200 degrees. It will ruin a batch of lead alloy. It's the reason to pre-sort out zinc wheel weights, if that is what you are melting down. IF you overfill your melting pot, and have a few zinc weights at the bottom, where they might see 1200 degrees, the pot and that batch will be ruined. I always start melting my batches with just a few handfuls of raw lead, and then when that melts, I stir in some more. I'm always terrified of some kind of zinc product being at the bottom of a very full smelting pot.
    2) Lead is extremely dense. It is the most dense thing in the pot of molten lead. Toss in a steel bolt and it will float. The sand and other impurities also want to float to the surface, but the overall density of the molten lead prevents them from rising through that dense lead.
    3) Stirring in sawdust, and especially soft pine or other resinous plant fibers creates pathways through the lead for th impurities to travel along, making their way to the top where they can be skimmed off. I usually use a good handful of soft pine shavings (horse bedding) or sawdust, and then stir it in vigorously, stirring all the way to the bottom of the pot. You are trying to create eddy current pathways for the junk to make it through the dense lead. Right when the pine starts to char, and before it burns into ash, I skim it all off the top, along with the sand, and other impurities. I do that three or more times, depending on how nasty the raw lead was.
    4) I then switch over to paraffin wax, old candles from yard sales, they are always cheap. Pieces about the size of a walnut are good. Toss that on the top of the molten lead, and stir, again towards the bottom. Be ready for the wax, with a low burning point, to flare into flames quickly. The melted wax creates even finer pathways through the dense lead, allowing the finer grit to make its way to float on the top. I do the wax a couple to three times, and stir until the wax completey burns off. I allow the lead to tell me when it's done. When constant stirring and scraping on the bottom of the pot no longer loosens the grey dust stuff to the surface, I know I am ready to pour out into ingots.
    5) Watch out for gold colored stuff which might float to the surface. That is typically TIN coming out of solution with the lead. Sure sign that you are overheating the lead in the pot. Turn down the heat, and stir that gold stuff back into solution. Tin helps the lead FLOW into tight corners in your mold.
    6) Ditto for blue or purple stuff rising to the top. That's antimony coming out of solution due to over heating the lead. Antimony is added to make the lead harder. Mix that back into solution, and lower the heat.

    You always want the lead to just barely stay molten during the "fluxing" process. Over heating it risks having tin and antimony come out of solution, and wastes propane or whatever you are using as a heat source.

    Finally, while I am ladling out alloy into ingot molds (I like using cupcake tins), I use the back of the ladle to clear a very shiny path through the lead, and at the end of opening up that shiny area, I dip the ladle into that, to get my lead. I eventually, even after careful cleaning and fluxing, will start to get a bunch of gritty grey crap on the surface again. I stop making ingots and clear that stuff out of the pot. I don't want any of that in my ingots.

    Remember, any grit you leave in the alloy is like sandpaper scraping through the bore of your barrel. I don't want to wear out barrels like that, and hope you don't either. I hope my explanation of how I do it might help others.
    Lead melts at 621°, zinc melts at 787°.

    If you can't get those two FACTS right the rest of your post is highly questionable in my mind.
    NRA Benefactor.

  14. #34
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    Duke missed another important point - oxidation. I cast with an open pot and ladle and thus are always adding oxygen to the mix. Tin oxidizes first and thus needs to be mixed back in to the alloy. Wax accomplishes this, thus the reason to use it in the pot when I'm casting.
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  15. #35
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    I have purchased (many moons ago) pet bedding from PetSmart. Not the walnut or cob stuff, but IIRC it was for Hamster bedding and was wood "flakes". The only product I ever bought for fluxing. Worked OK for smelting, but there's usually something around the shop that works well for fluxing (Motor oil, wax, I have even used BBQ briquettes and "smoker chips").

    The OP could put at least one bag of the sawdust he purchased, in his will for his grandkids. 110 gal will last a very looooong time....
    Last edited by mdi; 10-15-2019 at 11:00 AM.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdi View Post
    The OP could put at least on bag of the sawdust he purchased, in his will for his grandkids. 110 gal will last a very looooong time....
    I was thinking about how long 2 barrels of sawdust would last me. But if it was free or very cheap and I had the space to store it I would stock up too. I use a hand full, about a coffee cup full, when I'm smelting. I'll flux up to 3 times, depending on how the first time cleans things up. That hand full of sawdust is for a 350-400# batch of lead. I usually get a few gallon ziploc bags at a time from a carpenter friend before I run out.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdi View Post
    I have purchased (many moons ago) pet bedding from PetSmart. Not the walnut or cob stuff, but IIRC it was for Hamster bedding and was wood "flakes". The only product I ever bought for fluxing. Worked OK for smelting, but there's usually something around the shop that works well for fluxing (Motor oil, wax, I have even used BBQ briquettes and "smoker chips").

    The OP could put at least on bag of the sawdust he purchased, in his will for his grandkids. 110 gal will last a very looooong time....
    I do have a 7 month old and when he gets older I'm hoping he follows in my footsteps when it comes to reloading lol

  18. #38
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    I flux my pot when starting or adding, regardless of how clean my lead is. There has been times I didn't flux when adding a few ingots, but I guess those ingots weren't super clean as I started having inclusions.

  19. #39
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    Sorry that I was closer to boiling point of zinc than melting point.

    My purpose in mentioning zinc was that if you leave a single zinc wheel weight at the bottom of an over loaded smelting pot of lead wheel weights, it's entirely likely that the zinc WILL melt and ruin the batch and likely the pot.

    I apologize to everyone for attempting to be of assistance in this matter. Hopefully, my entire post wasn't a complete waste of time. Guess I better also check for spelling errors. <wink>


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  20. #40
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    This thread has run it's course. Closed.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check