Please help me decide. 38-40 or 44-40?

[sghart3578]

Okay neighbors. I have decided to go with a relining of my Puma 92 in 45 Colt. I thought that I wanted a 44-40 but then I started researching the 38-40 and now I am not so sure. I am turning to you guys for help.

Before I go any further I should note a few things

I don't hunt any longer so any use with the future conversion will be at the range for fun time. I don't compete either.

While I am an experienced caster and reloader I have never cast for or reloaded either caliber. Heck, I've never even fired either caliber.

I would be starting from scratch with either one. I would need molds, dies, brass, etc.

That's where I'm at. If you could have just one which one would it be?

As always I thank you in advance for your time and I know I will get some good info.


Steve in N CA

[NorthMoccasin]

I have both, in original Marlin 94's Both are a lot of fun, but require care when loading. The necks are thin so care is required to avoid crumpling them. you will use a little less lead with the 38-40, but there are a wider variety of moulds available for the 44-40. Starline brass is by far the best for both calibers.

[Outpost75]

If you are just using the rifle for range shooting, consider the 10x25mm. John Taylor has the chambering and die reamers and can do your rifle and a matching revolver in the same caliber. Cases are necked down .44 Russian.

Attachment 248295Attachment 248296Attachment 248297

The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity, when necked down to .40 having a capacity of 20-21 grains of 3Fg, 4.0-4.5 grains of Trail Boss or 14 grs. of IMR4227 using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #18. From our custom 5-inch Ruger Blackhawks, we attained 1000 fps with Accurate 40-182H and 950 fps with 40-220H cast bullets with 5 grains of Bullseye.

Source brass to make the 10x25mm is either .44 Special, which is then necked down and cut off to 1 inch, or Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as-is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

The maximum black powder charge is 24 grains of Goex 3Fg using a drop tube or compression die. With Trail Boss 4.5 grains is a “full charge” load, because Trail Boss should NOT be compressed. Starting loads using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 40-220H gave 760 fps with a standard deviation of only 7 fps and an extreme spread of 29 fps over a 12-shot string, producing satisfying 2” groups at 25 yds. I had John build a single-shot rifle in this caliber, but a levergun would be cool and hold lots of these little stubby, short rounds.

[Savvy Jack]

If you are just using the rifle for range shooting, consider the 10x25mm. John Taylor has the chambering and die reamers and can do your rifle and a matching revolver in the same caliber. Cases are necked down .44 Russian.

Attachment 248295Attachment 248296Attachment 248297

The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity, when necked down to .40 having a capacity of 20-21 grains of 3Fg, 4.0-4.5 grains of Trail Boss or 14 grs. of IMR4227 using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #18. From our custom 5-inch Ruger Blackhawks, we attained 1000 fps with Accurate 40-182H and 950 fps with 40-220H cast bullets with 5 grains of Bullseye.

Source brass to make the 10x25mm is either .44 Special, which is then necked down and cut off to 1 inch, or Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as-is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

The maximum black powder charge is 24 grains of Goex 3Fg using a drop tube or compression die. With Trail Boss 4.5 grains is a “full charge” load, because Trail Boss should NOT be compressed. Starting loads using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 40-220H gave 760 fps with a standard deviation of only 7 fps and an extreme spread of 29 fps over a 12-shot string, producing satisfying 2” groups at 25 yds. I had John build a single-shot rifle in this caliber, but a levergun would be cool and hold lots of these little stubby, short rounds.

[Cast_outlaw]

I’m a personal fan and bias to the 44-40 as I have a revolver and model 92 in it but haven’t heard any negative things about the 38-40. Although there is limited recently published data for 44-40 and probably for 38-40 there is older data and a wealth of information on this forum I would suggest you talk with some of the people who post on it savvy jack, and outpost75 seam to be a couple of the more well versed members who load 44-40 and possibly the 38-40 on here

[dangitgriff]

44-40, hands-down.
“THE” cartridge that really won the West.
R/Griff

(From the Boot Hill cemetery in Tombstone, AZ)

[Outpost75]

IF you want a round which you can buy factory ammo for, the .44-40 has advantages. My experience with the .38-40 in vintage revolvers was that chamber dimensions varied widely and caused problems. I had John Taylor do two .44-40 Ruger revolver cylinders for me and a single-shot rifle, and his reamer cuts chambers with a .448" neck diameter which enables loading .430" bullets in Starline brass and cutting a .4305" cylinder throat which is a good match-up with modern .44 Magnum revolver barrels.

My 1915 Spanish El Tigre and Marlin 1894S from the 1993 production run for Jerry's Sport Shop in PA both have similar dimensions and shoot well with cast bullets of 1:30 tin-lead sized .430" in Starline brass with 6 grains of Bullseye which I also shoot in my 1906 date of manufacture Colt Frontier Six Shooter.

Accurate 43-206H is my Keith Homage bullet optimized for the .44-40 and is the best yet which I have shot in that caliber!

Attachment 248309Attachment 248310

[Finster101]

44-40

[cwtebay]

I have 1892's and SAA in both. Pick the one that turns your crank. They're both great cartridges to reload, brass and loaded ammo is available for both. You can't go wrong with your choice!!

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Piedmont]

.38-40. Reason? Well, the loaded rounds look cooler. One of the coolest looking rounds out there. I keep trying to talk myself into one but the short necked chambers (that blow out brass when fired) and too large case capacity for a revolver round (I want one in a revolver) keep holding me back.

[indian joe]

Piedmont said it ------38-40 is almost the coolest looking round (45-75 is the best!!)
I built a 38-40 a couple years ago on a 92 action, 26 inch half round half octagon barrel
shoots a duplex load, 3 grains of 4227 under a case of black, RCBS cowboy mold --- love it!!

[Bent Ramrod]

I have Low Walls and Single Action revolvers in both calibers. The only practical difference I see between the cartridges is that .38-40 components aren’t as common as .44-40, and that the .38-40 shell is more prone to lube dents when full-length resized.

[Eddie Southgate]

38-40

[smkummer]

Load a 200 grain bullet for your 45 colt and call it good. What ever your shooting won’t know the difference between a 43 cal. and a 45 cal. bullet. After you have mastered loading the bottlenecks with dies that require lube and de-lube the cases, you may tire of the additional steps. Just my .02 cents.

[sghart3578]

Load a 200 grain bullet for your 45 colt and call it good. What ever your shooting won’t know the difference between a 43 cal. and a 45 cal. bullet. After you have mastered loading the bottlenecks with dies that require lube and de-lube the cases, you may tire of the additional steps. Just my .02 cents.

Normally I would take that very good advice. But this is not a vanity project. You say whatever i hit won't know the difference. Again, under normal circumstances, I would agree. But I can't hit anything with this rifle.

The chamber on this rifle is so large that I can chamber .480" bullets. The groups at 50 yards measure 12". I have tried different bullet weights, powder charges, diameters, etc. The normal work up procedure. I can load the bullets that I cast for 45-70 and chamber them one at a time and they group better.

So I am stuck with a decision. Do I sell this rifle or fix it? I could sell it but I would have to tell the prospective buyer that there are problems shooting cast bullets. My conscience wouldn't let me keep that a secret. Or I can convert to another caliber.

I really like the rifle so I think that I will convert it, I just have to decide what i want.

Thanks everyone for your input. I'm leaning towards 44-40.


Steve in N CA

[jonp]

If you are just using the rifle for range shooting, consider the 10x25mm. John Taylor has the chambering and die reamers and can do your rifle and a matching revolver in the same caliber. Cases are necked down .44 Russian.

Attachment 248295Attachment 248296Attachment 248297

The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity, when necked down to .40 having a capacity of 20-21 grains of 3Fg, 4.0-4.5 grains of Trail Boss or 14 grs. of IMR4227 using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #18. From our custom 5-inch Ruger Blackhawks, we attained 1000 fps with Accurate 40-182H and 950 fps with 40-220H cast bullets with 5 grains of Bullseye.

Source brass to make the 10x25mm is either .44 Special, which is then necked down and cut off to 1 inch, or Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as-is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

The maximum black powder charge is 24 grains of Goex 3Fg using a drop tube or compression die. With Trail Boss 4.5 grains is a “full charge” load, because Trail Boss should NOT be compressed. Starting loads using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 40-220H gave 760 fps with a standard deviation of only 7 fps and an extreme spread of 29 fps over a 12-shot string, producing satisfying 2” groups at 25 yds. I had John build a single-shot rifle in this caliber, but a levergun would be cool and hold lots of these little stubby, short rounds.

Why do people keeping coming up with this stuff? I'm going broke

[sghart3578]

Why do people keeping coming up with this stuff? I'm going broke

I know what you mean, it's killing me.

[rockrat]

I ended up with a '92 in 38-40. Shoots very well.

[jonp]

If you can chamber 480's can you turn it into a 475 Linebaugh or 480 Ruger? Just load light loads in it

[sghart3578]

If you can chamber 480's can you turn it into a 475 Linebaugh or 480 Ruger? Just load light loads in it

That's an option I guess. But the bore measures .451".


Steve in N CA